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Joni: Murder suicide is the kind of tragedy that leaves all of us asking why. That's what we're figuring out by talking to the people who've lived through it unlike the often-sensational coverage of True Crime in the media the aim of our podcast is to give our viewers and our listeners an up close and personal accurate account of murder suicide the risk factors the personal experience and the aftermath on our podcast the real expert is a person who's lived through it, the Survivor.

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Welcome to the Final Act I'm Joni Johnston, a forensic psychologist and private investigator. I also bring a personal perspective to this topic as is my co-host Jacquelyn Jamason, a mental health professional for the past 25 years. 

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Jacque lost her daughter to murder suicide 10 years ago and spent has spent her professional time since then helping survivors navigate the complex journey through grief.

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Jacque: Hi Joni, so this has been a passion project I guess you would call it for me but also, you know, lived experience with my own story which I'll share about. But I wanted to just take a minute to say “thank you” Joni for the work that you you're doing here and for all of the time you're putting into this podcast. I reached out to Joni, or I found out about Joni, actually I found out about you through the Murder Suicide Loss Network group that I attend now. It took me, my tragedy was about 10 years ago and it took me almost those full 10 years to find a support group online that dealt directly with and/or about murder suicide loss.

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And so, it's a peer-led support group and I attended probably three or four different support groups that are usually once every few weeks in the evenings before I was invited to join one of the committees to work on sort of outreach. 

 

The group recently became a nonprofit in January of this year just a few months ago, and so one of the Committees we talked about the work that you're doing and the initial project that you were doing. I'll let you speak on that because I don't have all the ins and outs, but I wanted to reach out to you because I was immediately interested and curious about some of the data that you were collecting and some of the curricula that you were working on, and the fact that you were personally invested and that you had your own reasons for wanting to do this, so that's kind of how this all started. And I think you asked me actually what do you feel like the biggest, you know, splash would be in order for us to be able to get the word out to be able to talk to people get the information that we need maybe talk about triggers awareness education and my response was let's do a podcast! Let's go on the internet because this is a worldwide reach and it can get us so much further than maybe just writing a blog or putting in putting out a newsletter or just putting something on the website so that's really that was my main goal and I'm so happy that we started this project and I'm very happy to share my story today and talk to you a little bit about your why too.

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Well, it's been quite a journey I really got hooked up with the Murder Suicide Loss Network through my own research I mean I literally kept coming across murder suicide cases and I'm going to call them cases because that's what they were to me at the time.

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I did as I mentioned I did a lot of writing and I just, I mean, I would, every week I would get these news feeds that talked about children who were lost and a husband who murders his wife and then kills himself; and I started thinking you know I never had any training in that area and so I started looking you know what is being done in this area who's doing work in this area and I had trouble finding anybody but I did find a an organization out of Georgia who was doing some work and they introduced me to Mitch and Jenna and some of the people that we'll be interviewing this season on the Final Act.

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And couple of things struck me one being this this sense of how I don't fit in anywhere that really kind of touched my heart I heard so many stories from people that I spoke to who said you know “I don't fit in at the murder the violent murder group, I don't fit in at the suicide loss group” I feel because they're all in the same family. And I just feel like I don't fit in anywhere and the other thing I think that really motivated me personally, as well as professionally, is there seem to be some specific parts of murder suicide that I think are easily missed by mental health professionals; and so initially I had an idea, and I still do, of doing some training for mental health professionals to recognize the kind of unique part of murder suicide and how important it is to screen for that particularly when you have somebody in your office who's expressing suicidal ideation and they have a conflictual relationship or they're going through a custody battle.

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Joni: There's so many aspects of that that I think are really important, and so you and I did meet in that way and you it was your completely your idea to do a podcast I was very excited about doing it especially given the fact and this is one of our major, I think, purposes for talking about this today is for you to share your story because you have so many almost unspeakable parts of your story that I think are just so important for people to hear

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Jacque: Yeah I appreciate that and I appreciate I guess the opportunity to talk about it on such a large platform, and I say large platform because it's not something I've really done before ever I've told my story at County Victim Services event or a Victim Services Month Awareness Banquets. I've done a presentation at the Parents of Murdered Children's conference during lunch and things like that, but I've never really taken the time to share my story like this one on-one and maybe answer questions and kind of dig into some of the things like my side of the story - for instance you know some of the things that I actually think about or go through on a day-to-day basis, and I think what makes it even more unique on some level, is the fact that I am a mental health professional for over 25 years.

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I was licensed as a mental health professional in the State of Florida in 2003 and I've had private practices on and off I've worked in multiple nonprofits I've worked in child abuse I've worked with the county I've worked with Department of Children and Families domestic violence, you name it, you know I've done it and the fact that I was in a relationship where there were very covert manipulations over a long period of time with somebody who was also a licensed clinician and there's a lot of stigma around that. There's stigma for me and shame and some embarrassment around the fact that I should have been aware I should have had some knowledge I should have taken more steps should have done this or I should have done that and maybe people don't think that but that's what I feel people might think so I've been a little hesitant to dig in and unpack some of that.

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Joni: So when you think about your story I guess where do you begin?

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Jacque: Where do I begin? Well, you know, there's so many different layers to my story.

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I was raised in South Florida and I was this is actually to me now a part of my story because I think there's a cycle here there was sexual trauma and physical trauma as a child for me by my stepfather. And that was a secret that I kept for a long time right because a lot of times when we are subjected to that as a child, we are told to keep that a secret or else, and so I was sort of programmed or groomed to not speak up about how I feel, or about what was happening to me. And when I graduated from high school I took a year a gap year and then I decided I needed to get away and I ended up going to college with the help of a of a wonderful mentor of mine to a school in Kentucky and, I'll take out names and places to so that I don't you know offend anyone here, I'll try and do that, and while I was there, after my first year and a half or so I came out as gay and so that was in, gosh, 1992 or 93. And so you can imagine the stigma then around that and I met my ex who ended up being the perpetrator here in college at a peer support group for incest survivors so that's kind of how our relationship was built it was built on the foundation of a trauma bond really or became later built on the foundation of a trauma bond, I guess I should say, because we met in a group for that and she became really the first person in my outside world that I would share everything with.

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There was a there was a time in high school where I did share with a teacher and my mentor, and so it did come out with my family, and all of that but I mean to the world right that, I, and I actually for the first time was asking for help so she was a part of that my ex and you know we fell in love and we ended up graduating together and coming back to Florida and started a life here and looking back though some so for me the red flags were the coercive control in terms of, I guess, we should call it more of a what do they call it now love bombing. Right now, we have a word for it. Where there were cards every day, she would break into my, she would she would go into my dorm room while I was away at classes, and you know, buy me groceries and do my laundry, and you know ,just do all of these things. And it really felt quite overwhelming, and there were things that she was telling me about what was happening with a person in her life that was abusing her still, that I still to this day don't know if it was true or not. I believe that it might have been a manipulation to get try to get closer to me was this somebody from her childhood who she was, it was a parent, okay right.

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So, I felt kind of icky in the beginning but it was one of those things where, gosh, she was doing for me at the time things that nobody else ever did for me. She paid attention to me in a way that I felt like nobody ever had before. I know my family loved me, but there was not an emotional attachment with my family, you know, nobody was touchy feely. It was very kind of distant and separate, and I was for the first time I felt loved. I felt like I was being taken care of. I felt to all of that, what we call now as love bombing, felt so good to me and she was so charming and paid attention to me and just took care of me. And I needed that at the time.

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So anyway, we came back here and we started our life, and you know, not to get into the to the nitty-gritty of all of the in between we were together for 20 years. And it was up and down over those years. There were some infidelities on both parts, and there were times when I felt like I wanted to leave the relationship, but I didn't. I didn't want to leave what I had, and we've talked about some of this, you know, you and I before, there's a stigma there already about, first of all I was the only college graduate in my family ever, and I did this on my own because my family didn't support me, for whatever reason, after all the stuff about the abuse came out there was just such a separation; but I almost, I wanted to prove to myself and to everyone else that I could be successful that I could have a solid relationship even though I was gay, I was in the gay community.

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So, I wanted the white picket fence and I wanted the two and a half kids, and I wanted the good job, and I wanted to be seen as I wanted to be seen as well. I wanted to be seen like everyone else in the world who was a young adult, being successful in their life. And so, the things that were going on in the background I never talked about with anyone, and while there was not physical violence, there was this undercurrent of lies and manipulations that I dealt with her consistently over the years.

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And I didn't know what to do with that, other than to continue to just, you know, keep moving forward and trying to keep it together; and at some point, there was just like this acceptance that this was who she was and there was addiction as well. So on her part there was alcohol at one time, but mostly prescription medications, and so there was this sort of consistent struggle on and off over the years I eventually, you know, I wanted to have children.

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I always wanted children, and so we went through the process after being together for 10 years, of me going through infertility treatments. And I did get pregnant, after four years through infertility treatments, with my son. And we just kind of did the day-by-day thing, you know? We just lived life; and not all of it was bad right? Not all of it was bad. There was some great moments, there were some wonderful memories, but definitely looking back, you know, lots of mental health the things we hear now - about narcissism and manipulation and love bombing and all of that? Definitely.

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Were there red flags? They were there as time went on…

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Joni: so can I interrupt just ask a couple questions? Because there's so much information that you're telling me. That, and there's, I have so many questions about that I guess.

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One comment first, I think is just what a vulnerable time it must have been for you when you met her because you're talking about a couple things.

You're in a group where you're sharing incredibly vulnerable stories so there's that setting that, to me, is just is so interesting, and then come out recently, which I would imagine took a tremendous amount of courage and fear. I would imagine so there's that piece of it to me, in terms of you meeting her, and so I can't imagine why you would not respond to somebody loving you and caring for you and doing things for you that you never have done for yourself.

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And that was the first thing that really popped up for me is wow I mean that's just can understand how anybody in that situation would respond similarly. And I guess, the other the question I had though is: when you're talking about kind of these this manipulation or these lies that start, so I guess one question was:

When did you first become aware that she was lying to you and what was the manipulation?

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Jacque: Like, there's so many instances, I think, I knew even in college when we first got together that I was questioning her truth.

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There's a one particular situation that I'm thinking about, where I was actually dating a guy friend of mine, we went to we went to a mixer and but I was also becoming very close with her, so it was really kind of before her and I decided we were going to, you know, try this whole thing relationship together. And she called me to come, I was about half an hour away, she called me and told me that her perpetrator had been there to visit her and had raped her and she was in my dorm room. And when I, so I left the mixer, and I but in that moment I felt like something just didn't feel right to me, and when I got back to where she was, without going into too much detail, she was in distress; but it just seemed staged to me. And then I told her, right you know, she needed to go to the school police, we needed to report it. and what have you; and there was so much resistance there but not the resistance that… it just didn't feel right to me.

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And so, later I kind of found out more details that led me to believe that, I just had too much information, that led me to believe that that couldn't have occurred. Okay? If that makes any sense. And so there were things like that, and mind you she was in therapy at the time with someone who was a professor at the school but also a psychologist, and to go back to your question about the support group absolutely what brought me to that support group was, I was a freshman in college and I was for the first time away from home experimenting with alcohol and I was super depressed. I couldn't quite put my finger on why I was starting to drink more and I really was having these feelings of not wanting to be alive. I didn't have a plan to kill myself. I didn't want to necessarily do anything to harm myself, but I just was miserable. And so, I told them I went to the school counseling center, I told them what was going on and they said you know you're not at risk for hurting yourself but there's this group. And so that's kind of how that came about.

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And then she happened to be attending the group as well, so very vulnerable absolutely. And yeah, I still have a lot of questions in my mind about where I was where my head was at and, gosh, I just I was so desperate. I was so desperate to be loved and taken care of, and she was that person for me. And I didn't want to lose that so I don't know if you have, if you want to follow up with that, because I kind of want to fast forward a little bit.

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Joni: No no, go ahead go ahead

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Jacque: For sure yeah. So I feel like I kind of need to, just I just wanted to kind of say, how things started how we met but if we push the fast forward button 10 years ago.

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In 2014, on Memorial Day after I had left her. Just a few months prior to that we separated. I was not there, I was not, she had a visitation with my kids, actually. I left out my whole daughter scenario. I did have a daughter in 2010 via IVF and Ellie, Elliana, is the main victim of this crime.

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So anyway, she had visitation with the kids and I was at a beach function with a bunch of friends and I got a call from a neighbor that my daughter was dead and I didn't know what happened. No none of us knew what happened. So, they had to get me off this beach island and get me to the hospital where I found out that she had drowned my daughter to death, tried to overdose my son, and tried to kill herself.

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So it's been 10 years now, so Eliana was two and a half at the time, and my son was 10 at the time, and he actually woke up from the incident and called the police and that's how we all found out. Don't know if you have any questions about any of that. And normally I start off talking about the day this is what happened, right, because it's almost like when people have these incidents it's BC, not BC, but what happened before and what happened after. So, my life before and my life after. But today, I don't know why, I decided to start with sort of the background, a little bit.

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But both of my children were conceived through IVF. So, it took a lot of energy and effort for me to have them. They are my world. And this loss was, you know, really tremendous for multiple reasons.

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Joni: Yeah, and so you were told by a neighbor, initially, that your daughter had died. But you didn't have any idea why, or like, what had happened or anything? Only at the hospital then you find out kind of the full scope of what's, and your son, who's 10, is the one who found, or who woke up? Okay, and where was your ex at this time?

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Jacque: So, she had them at my apartment. I left them with her before I went to, because it was Memorial Day, so there was a, you know, a function and it was a planned visit. Because we had separated, right? But she was there with them, so when the police arrived, she was unconscious on the floor, and my son was in a robe, you know, kind of frantically running around with the phone talking, trying to get neighbors, trying to get someone there. He actually woke up to find his sister, my daughter, in the bathtub. So, the door was locked. He had to unlock the bathroom door and pull her out of the bathtub, and then call the police. So, he really was kind of a hero that day. And unfortunately, because of that, he still has many struggles.

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He's 21 now and it's been a rough 10 years, if you can imagine, I'm sure.

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Joni: So, when your son woke up, is it safe to guess, that your ex (is that the best way to how should I refer to her? What is the best way to refer to her?)

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Jacque: You can say ex, that's fine.

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Joni: Okay, you're separated, your ex, the perpetrator, she assumed that he was also dead, I think?

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Jacque: So, we're not sure. There was a suicide note on the computer that she wrote and there were pills everywhere. So, she had also tried to kill herself with prescription medications. So according to my son, he said that she was crushing up medicines and putting it in their coffee and trying to get them to drink it to, and what she said to him was, “this will make you bigger and stronger because that's what doctor, his doctor said to do.” And he had big trust in his pediatrician that he would trust what he was saying and, I guess Ellie would not drink the drink, and so she was telling him “Chug. Chug, chug drink. The drink, it's going to make you stronger.”

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So, she made sure that he drank everything that she asked him to drink, and then she said “I'm taking her into the bathroom to take a bath.” That's the last thing he remembers before he woke up, sometime in between there, what they're saying is, that's when she wrote the note.

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It was clear enough to understand what it said which was, basically, “You did this to yourself, now you can go be with all your little friends.” Basically, you know, deal with it. You now you get to deal with this because you hurt me. So now I'm going to hurt you.

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 That was that was kind of basically. So it was a crime of passion, a crime of jealousy, a crime of, it was later to found to be premeditated. She had looked up things online about, you know, Xanax and different things that they found. Medications. She visited a few doctors, got extra medications before she came.

So anyway, when my son woke up he knew to look in the bathroom because he couldn't find, he couldn't wake her up, right? He couldn't wake my ex up. He remembered Ellie was going to be taken in the bath. He couldn't find her so he tried the door, it was locked, he unlocked it. And then he pulled her out. And then he called, went and found his phone, and called 911.

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Yeah, he really was a hero.

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Yeah, you know, and in so many ways he feels like he should have been the one to know better, to know that she was. You know, he was 10. There's so many things that happened with him too, around coercive control and manipulation and lying, to lead him to believe that I was the bad guy in all of this, in the separation, in the divorce. And I had started dating being a friend of ours, and so there was that as well, and he believed her fully, trusted her. They were very close.

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Joni: So it sounds like it was basically revenge was the main motive. Right? Is that, is that kind of what you made of it? I mean, because it sounds like the note was an angry note, essentially “your fault and, you know, you know, I'm not doing this. You're making me do this.” Essentially.

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Jacque: Right, yeah, it was an angry note. It was a revenge crime. She, so, when they, she, finally woke up two days later they were able to question her on the way to the jail. And she denies remembering anything. And then, later, her defense was going to be multiple personalities or dissociative identity disorder because of trauma. But when you live with somebody for 20 years, and I lived with her for that long, the only thing I ever saw was addiction and blackout scenarios. Not, I don't know, “who I am as a person?” Definitely not multiple personality.

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You know, a lot of us who suffer from trauma have some level of dissociation I think, when we're triggered. And it's a coping strategy we used, and that's what we call daydreaming, or checking out, but we know our actions we know our behavior unless we are taking a substance that stops us from remembering. So I believe that that's maybe what happened is that she blacked out.

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Joni: had she ever threatened to hurt herself or the kids before?

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Jacque: definitely a history of depression and suicide ideation prior to this happening. So, this was in February of 2014. In December of 2013 there was a scenario where these kinds of things that began to happen, and I'll just give you a little scenario quickly: We were at a at a party with a bunch of friends of ours all sitting around just chatting. And the woman she was sitting next to worked at an oncology center for kids and was also going through cancer treatment herself. And Kim said “I know what that's like, I've had cancer and I've been through treatments too.” She had not.

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And I wasn't the only person that overheard that. There was another person that overheard that that as well, but I immediately turned to her and I said, you know, kind of like nudged her, and I said “What are you, what are you doing?” You know? I'm like we need to go. So we actually walked there because we lived in the neighborhood and as we walked home, I just began to ask her a bunch of questions, you know, like “What are you thinking here, you already have a job and if you get a job based on a false premise then what, you know, what's going on?” And she couldn't answer that.

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I was of course livid and we had already been having some problems for multiple reasons, and later that night she told me there was something else she needed to share with me. She had been seeing our longtime therapist multiple times a week for depression anxiety. The fact that we were kind of working on separating, and I found out from the therapist later some of this information, but that night she told me, well I didn't want to use the name, my ex told me that she had been lying to her therapist that she had been dating somebody named Nicholas who was very rich that was going to be paying for her sessions. And she was communicating with our therapist using an alternative email by Nicholas about the sessions. And about how he was going to pay. So, the story began to unfold, and unfold, and unfold.

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Now remember, this is December or January. It is prior to the May incident. So, and this was the next day after this incident with the cancer story, so as you can imagine I was deciding myself… I finally decided to reach out to some friends of mine. I called her mom. I called the therapist. And I just told everyone, you know, what was going on because I was just blown away by what was happening. And I told her, I said, “You need to go get help. You're going to talk to your mom. You're going to talk to therapist.” And she did she went to a treatment center for 30 to 45 days for the pill addiction, for the depression, and to address some of these things that were going on the lies and different things.

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So for all intents and purposes, when she got out, while she was away, by the way, I separated from her. I moved out. I took the kids. But, when she got out, she was, from what we could tell, doing better.

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Joni: And so, when she did get out, just to kind of give me a time frame, you talked about March, is right?

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Jacque: And so she did come for a visit in March to see the kids, around spring break. And that was a rocky visit. She begged me to take her back. She begged me to give her a chance, you know? I wasn't doing it, was just 20 years of things getting worse, and worse, and worse. And escalating. And the amount of lies were growing. And, yeah, I just… I didn't… that wasn't something that I could do anymore. And I was really worried about the kids being around it, but she always really, especially with Ethan, had a really special bond with him. And I always said to her “You know, look, I'm not going to keep the kids from you. Our situation is our situation.” Because no, there really was never any, to my knowledge, I didn't think she would ever hurt the kids. However, that being said, she did not want me to get pregnant with Ellie.

There was a, time in there where, we moved from Florida to Virginia to be with her mom and around her family. Back in like 2010/2009 to 2013. Before we came back to Florida, where things got really rough. But despite all of that, I wanted to have another child and so I through IVF, was pregnant with my daughter, and she was not happy about that. And when Ellie was like 3 months old, one day she told me, you know, why I resent her right? And I said “No” and she said “I resent her because I resent you for having her.” And as crushed as I was by that, and I knew that they weren't really bonding, whoever thinks that the worst will happen?

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Yeah, she was distant from her. She wasn't as close with her as she was with Ethan. But there was never any maliciousness that I could tell, you know, any hate or anything like that never any maltreatment. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know if, if that was, you know, she lost her job. Ahe lost her family. She was struggling from depression and mental health issues. There were the pills, you know, what's that show called “Snapped”? Did she snap? You know, I don't know.

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Joni: So what you came back in March of 2014 from rehab treatment and she seemed better to you. Do you think she assumed that, that I mean, she obviously wanted to get back together, do you think she assumed that if she went to treatment that, somehow, that would fix your relationship? And that you, that was kind, of almost like, a trade-off for you having her back?

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Jacque: When she got out, I think so, because I had so many years of compassion and empathy for her. And giving in to her and her addiction. And her, you know, physical and mental needs and all of that. That I just gave her chance, after chance, after chance. And yeah, actually, I got a letter from her while she was in treatment apologizing for her behavior, for her lies, for, you know, all of these things. And I thought “Okay for the first time she's admitting some things.”

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But I knew, I mean, I knew. And I even told her therapist this, “This is not happening.” You know, I'm not, I'm not going to be a part of her treatment. I'm setting up some boundaries, you know. You can have, you can see the children. But no, we're not getting back together. But yeah, I think maybe she did think that she could win me back.

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One thing I want to say about the question you had was, it wasn't until several years ago really that I found out, through her mom, that a few weeks before the tragedy took place she had sort of a meltdown. And she was with her family and she was crying and all upset. And said she was having thoughts of hurting herself and the children. Nobody ever told me.

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And like I said, I didn't know until after way after court, you know, but she was charged and convicted over a, almost four-year long process, the State of Florida went after the death penalty. And during that time we were all on what I call “verbal lockdown.” We weren't allowed to talk to the media, we weren't allowed to talk to the family, we weren't allowed to, we weren't allowed to say anything to anyone about anything because it might jeopardize the case.

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And at that time, we were going to trial. But, so, it wasn't until after she was sentenced - there was a plea deal at the very last minute for life plus 30, no parole. To not have to go through trial. But it wasn't until years after that, that I found out what she said to her family.

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Joni: I was going to say what was your relationship like with her family? And how much did they know about some of the things that she was saying?

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Jacque: Some of the things that she was doing obviously they had some awareness, in terms of the thing that she said about those thoughts of hurting her kids and herself.

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So, I've had some contact with her mom. I was very close with her family, you know? Her family really took the place of my family in a lot of ways and I got things from them that I never got from my own family you know?

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We lived with them for a while when we moved to Virginia. I met them when I was in college. I grew, they met me when I was a kid, this all happened when I was in my 40s. So, you know, they were my family. And that was a big loss. That was a big loss for everyone, on both sides. And because we were forbidden from talking to them, there were things that I wish that I would have asked, I wish that I would have been able to talk to them

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Now, that being said, they were losing a daughter, or a niece, or a sister, right? To this crime. And they believed that it was really due to her mental health issues and that she would have never done anything unless there were these mental health issues. So there's still some denial there round the sociopathy part of things that I clearly see and know because of the work that I do.

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But also, because I'm not enmeshed, you know, in it, in that way. But yeah, a big loss for both sides.

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Joni: I can't even imagine Jacque. I really can't. I mean, just, I mean, there's so many levels of loss.There's a lot of layers right? So many layers.

And not just, I mean it, losing her family as you were saying, and then there's the whole issue of four years of having to be silent. And go through the court process. And, I don't know how involved you had to be in terms of showing up for certain court dates or… and then your son, trying to help him heal and I mean, it's more than I think any one person can bear almost.

Jacque: Sometimes I, you know, my son really struggles. I had him evaluated once when he was a teen, well not once, multiple times, you know. He was he an unfortunately born with a genetic disposition, to my family, of ADHD and anxiety, which I also struggle from. But the psychiatrist that I took him to after the trauma said “I'm sorry to tell you, he's a perfect storm.”

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I was like “Oh great, is there a medication for that?” You know, he was a teenage young man who, that speaks for itself right? With all of the hormones and everything but you have a predisposition being with ADHD and anxiety, they're predisposed to it. and then, on top of that, we have PTSD and trauma. And a young man whose hormones are absolutely raging and out of control on top of losing probably one of the closest people to him by betrayal.

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You know, she tried to take his life. And so, it's very hard now to watch him struggle and suffer on the days that are hard days for him. As a therapist I can see it for what it is, but as a parent I so badly want more for him. So it's this push-pull. And every time he has a hard day it kind of throws us both back into it.

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Joni: I was just going to say when did he become aware really aware of what had actually happened in terms of the fact that his parent had attempted to murder him and had murdered his sister that day?

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Jacque: He was aware of that at the time, he was aware that day, yeah, he was impacted by the Xanax that was given to him, but still able to tell the police in detail what happened and what was said. And I, you know, we have all of that on video. I sometimes, I've gone back to it. He's so little, you know? We think sometimes when they're 10 or 11 years old “They were so big.” He was so little and it breaks my heart, you know?

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I'm grateful that he did have the Xanax in his system because it was sort of, I would call it a brown out. He has the memories but they're not of the day. But that doesn't stick with him, the little tidbits, as much as just the idea that this person that he knew as his parent, who adored him, and who he adored, did this to him and his sister and me.

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Joni: So, what has your journey been like in terms of healing and moving forward and helping your son?

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Jacque: Yeah, it's definitely been a journey, you know? When I first got that phone call, the friends that were there with me, tell me that I dropped to my knees. I, you know, was the guttural scream that you see on TV. I vomited. And they had to, basically, walk me, carry me, to a kayak to be transported down the river to get to a police boat to be taken to the car.

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And I vaguely remember, you know, the that scenario. We drove to the hospital and then from there it was it gets fuzzy. But it's like you see on TV, where they bring you in and they walk you to the back room and they sit you down they tell you what happened. And then they interview you for hours - about your relationship, your history, your kids, how you parent. Did I know? Just hours.

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And so then, when that was done, I was able to see my son. And then, and then see my daughter. And say goodbye to her. And then, and then, they brought my son in and we sat next to my daughter together. And my mom was there, and our pastor was there. And I would say, you know, that memory is seared into my mind forever. More than you know. More than anything probably, just as much so as giving birth to her, you know? Giving birth to her and saying goodbye to her are kind of right next to each other.

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What I didn't know was that that my ex was right next door. There were police all over the hospital and, you know, later I found out that she was right next door. Anyway, so after that, later that day, I was actually taken to a hospital because I was in so much shock that I was non-verbal and I just really out of it and they kept me for a little while and they gave me some statives. And I went to an undisclosed location because it was national and local news because of the Bible verse that she used. We had been to church the day before, and there was a verse about Abraham says, you know, God told him to sacrifice his son. And she used that verse in her suicide note so you could imagine the attention that that got from biblical scholars and people.

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The national news and all of that. It was on Nancy Grace. It was on all over the front page of our newspaper. It was everywhere. And so, like, what I've heard from other people like the media really is the way that they were finding out information. So, those first few days really, we were in an undisclosed location at a hotel. And I don't remember a whole lot really, about the first weeks, months.

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About four months in, I really, I was so depressed. I tried to go back to work and I just couldn't manage I couldn't handle it. I'm a therapist, so I was trying to see people and I was suicidal. I started drinking, I was taking Xanax that was prescribed to me by the doctors to get through a death of a child. And I wasn't taking, I wasn't able to take care of myself. I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, I was a mess.

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So I happened to know enough about treatment, because I worked in the treatment industry on and off, that I reached out to some friends and they got me into a treatment center. So I was there for 45 days and it saved my life. After that, I came out and I just stayed in therapy. I took a year off of work and just really recovered and took time that I needed to heal. But it wasn't until, I would say, year two or three that things started to sort of feel okay again.

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I tell people sometimes I wasn't able to even plan for my next day. I wouldn't look at, I wouldn't look at a calendar and plan ahead. I just I couldn't bring myself, I didn't believe that tomorrow would exist in the same way that today would exist. So it took me a long time just planning the next day, and then planning the next month, and then planning the next year.

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It wasn't until 2017 that I started cycling and I got involved in triathlons that really pushed me to set a goal for six months or a year out. That I started to plan way in advance again. And that's actually one of the major coping strategies for me, was getting involved in Triathlon at 45 years old. And I still do that, at 52. And it definitely helps, the physical exercise, pushing myself. Some people say, you know, “How do you do that?”

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You know what, for me there's no pain that compares to what I went through losing my child, and losing my family, and losing the light in my son's eyes. And just my whole world crashing out on top of me. So that physical pain that I have to endure for however many hours kind of feels good and, I don't want to mean that in a weird sadistic way, but yeah that's how I cope mostly today.

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Joni: Yeah, I was in awe when you told me that you do triathlons. I can't even imagine doing that, but what a productive way to channel all that. You know? To channel all those emotions and let them out for a little bit.

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Yeah, and what about, I obviously don't want to speak for your son, and if you don't want to talk at all about his journey, you mentioned he was struggling. Is he, do you see him over time making progress? I mean, you know, with kids sometimes, yeah, even in their early 20s… I look at my kids, yeah, I have a kid. I have a 21y old myself and sometimes I kind of go “I don't know, is she is she going up or she just coasting or, you know, where is she exactly?” So that's a hard question to ask of anybody but I just want, so I think the challenges of this generation in particular are way different from what a lot of other generations have experienced, right? You probably see that in your 21y old, they have a lot more to contend with, I think, than we did, for sure, in terms of the economy and the overwhelm with social media and the things that they're exposed to. Which makes it, I think, more difficult for them to launch and to feel successful.

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Jacque: I see improvements in him very slowly. I think in part, because that frontal, low part of his brain is maturing. Definitely there are some red flags for mental health. I would be lying if I said that I didn't have consistent worries that he sometimes, I am afraid, that he will take his own life. He does suffer from ideation. He does suffer from some traumatic related personality characteristics, in terms of distorted thinking. You know, a lot of people who, I don't want to label him as borderline personality, but those are the kinds of things that I see. And that is the push-pull the wanting love and the wanting friendships. But at the same time pushing people away out of fear that he's going to get hurt. And he, also, is not interested in therapy right now. And he doesn't want to take medication. But what 21y old man, I call him man-boy, what 21y old man-boy or man wants to do that? Not many.

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It takes a really, I think, mature 21y old, especially male, to want to go to therapy and do those things. I think it'll happen. I hope. And he and, listen he is, I forgot to tell you the part, that he's a creative too. I mean he was in ballet and musical theater and he writes music and he's, so you know, on top of all of that other stuff like he's a creative and so our emotions are kind of everywhere. And we feel things differently and we experience things differently. So, I really, all I can do is hold on to faith and hope and unconditional love, which is sometimes hard. I want so much for him and I just, I hope and pray that he's okay. That's all I can really do, you know?

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Joni: One of the things that struck me as you were talking, Jacque, is just how you've been forced to just deal with stuff over and over again. And I say that because you know, my dad, after my parents’ divorce, my mom found him sitting in a rocking chair with a gunshot in his mouth a shotgun in his mouth. And he had taken the ring off. And he had had periods of depression. And so I, I share that only because growing up I was so afraid of sadness in a way or depression; or like I just wouldn't even acknowledge it in myself because it was so terrifying. It was like if you, if you are depressed in any way you're just going to be stuck or you're never going to get out of it, or, you know, it's like a dog. It grabs a hold of you and you doesn't let go. And I think just the trauma that you've gone through and then you have this child that has experienced that, and so even if you were trying to find ways to escape reminders of that, which I'm not saying it's possible, but I mean you have no, you've never had any opportunity to do that because you have to deal with this with your son. And so, I just can't imagine how you know difficult that has been.

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Jacque: Oh, so, I am in recovery now. I do go to AA and I practice those principles. I do have a strong faith and a higher power. I have a strong social support network. I practice self-care as much as I can and I take medication now. You know, I see a psychiatrist and I feel like not so much now but, you maybe, a little bit as a provider in mental health helping other people, I hesitate to share the real me and the things I struggle with because there are those naysayers that say “Only crazy people help other people. Only crazy people are therapists.” You know, so I joke. I actually feel like it gives us a better understanding of helping people. But, I, it's not something that I readily share that: after my daughter died, yeah I had to take medication for depression and I still do. And every time I try to go off of itm it doesn't end so well either - I go back to drinking, or I go down a rabbit hole, or I can't get out of bed.

And I've come to accept that what happened to me, not only in my childhood, but in my life and in with this tragedy - it has changed me, fundamentally changed me. And my physiology and my brain, and I'm unable to, my body and my brain, is unable to generate the dopamine and the serotonin that it needs to function. And to do these things that I'm doing right now. So that's a that's a battle, you know, I had to and I still have to every day I take my medication.

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I have to tell myself: If I was a diabetic, if I had cancer, if I had some other ailment: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, whatever it is, and I had to take a medication every day to keep those levels where they're supposed to be, I wouldn't question it. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't say: Oh, I don't want to, you know, why am I ? Why do I have to take this? I would just take it because I know that it was keeping my body in balance. So, I have to just remind myself that this is no different. And although it's been, I think, stigmatized to feel different, or to be looked at differently, so going back I was saying, you know, sometimes when I share in meetings I say “I only survived with the three s's: a psychologist which starts with a p, a sponsor which is in recovery, and serotonin.” So, you know, I joke about it. But definitely I have to have all of those pieces of the pie to keep it together.

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Joni: what are your biggest, I guess, wishes and goals for this podcast?

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Jacque: I think I just want people who are out there, not just the people who have stories to tell because they've been through it, but the general public people that want to help people, that are concerned about, you know… a lot of people well, when stuff, when bad things happen right, we're like “how can we help? I want to help.” And so, my hope is that through the stories that are told we will provide some way, or some venue, to educate people. To make people aware. To help people understand, maybe also, about grief and recovery when it comes to such a significant loss. Because I still hear things like it's been 10 years, you know, it's been 20 years, it's been 3 years, it's, you know, can we get over this already? Can we… you're still crying about that?

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You know, now I don't really have anyone in my life, I'm so blessed to have people in my life that are still hanging in there with me. I had a friend yesterday give me a little butterfly pin that said “Let go and let God” and, you know, butterflies were a thing for me in remembering my daughter. So I'm blessed in that way. But I just want people to know that we still need, you know, I need that support ongoing. I need for people to know that I need that compassion.

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I need for people to understand that coercive control is a thing. That the signs, and the red flags, and the triggers can be so subtle. And so much over a long period of time that you question “Am I making this up?”

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You know, I just I think there's so many nuances to why people commit a murder suicide. I don't even know if we really talked about what is a murder suicide, I mean so, if somebody kills someone else and then they take their own life, or they attempt to take their own life. I mean that's the bottom line, right that's, the premise.

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It's so nuanced. And so, I just hope that people hang in there with us to learn more about it, and get engaged, and yeah ask questions.

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Joni: I think those are such worthy goals and I guess just kind of in closing, I love that you were saying, you know, if people ask how can I help what would your answer be? You know, how can… understanding is one thing that you said, and being compassionate, but I think people sometimes don't know when they have a friend or a family member or sister-in-law, whatever, go through something like this. Because yes it's not common for this to happen, but it's a lot more common than I think most people… I was telling my husband that there's 10 on the average. 10 a week! And he said no, no. He just didn't believe that it's like, no there are!

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Jacque: So right, it does happen. How can people help? What should they do?

I think there's multiple things I think on a macro level, like on a big picture scale, to maybe just spread the word.

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And let people know, hey you know, this exists.

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This happens and this is not just the random True Crime show that you see, that is dramatized or, whatever, sensationalized.

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But this happens so often if you just Google “murder suicide” it's like, you know, even in your local area, even in small towns, it happens so much more frequently.

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And I think we're so bombarded with other news, especially right now, with politics and all of these thing,s which really just escalates the percentage or the potential percentage of murder suicides because people are overwhelmed.

So I think yeah, let people know. Have these conversations at dinner, when you're having pizza, when you're at a Super Bowl party, when you're hanging out with friends or you're online, you know?

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Just, we know about gun violence. We know about school shootings. We talk about it.

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I think this topic is not talked about enough and I think it needs to be talked about more.

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And then to be helpful on a more individual level, I think that really is an individual thing. If you have a family member, or a friend, or somebody that you're concerned about… just ask “hey, you know, is there anything I can do to help? What do you need? Do you want me to ask you questions? Do you not want to talk about it?”

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Because it's different for different people. I often feel like, sometimes, people want to talk about it but they don't want to upset me so I'm often the one to bring it up, especially with friends that were in this scenario, with me.

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I've since kind of reconnected with some of them and I've actually been the one to say “Hey, it's been 10 years, we haven't talked about it. Do you have any questions? Is there anything you want to say? How do you feel?” and so, to not be afraid, I guess, to bring up their name, to celebrate them, to be curious, to ask questions.

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Joni: Well, I really look forward to going on this journey with you.

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Jacque: And, yeah, I appreciate it was kind of all over the place with my story. It was tough. It was tough to, kind of, decide which direction I wanted to go in today.

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Joni: But I think the big stuff the important things were talked about, I think, you shared an amazing amount of information. And I think I just can only imagine the people that's going to touch who listen and watch as we move forward. So thank you so much Jacque for sharing that.

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Jacque: Yeah, and thank you for your share too. And I'm sorry for your loss as well.

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Joni: No I appreciate that, but you know, everybody has a loss I think, that's one of the things that they do, I mean it's, you know, I know there are scales and you know some losses certainly seem bigger than others. But I don't know anybody personally or professionally who hasn't undergone something in their lives so, I think, talking about grief in all kind different kinds of ways I think is always a good thing because it's like family secrets, you know, it's like some of these things we need to shine the light on you know?

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Jacque: Absolutely, and so yeah, that's the last thing I would say “Speak up. Speak out. Don't hold your secrets.’ If you are going through a hard time in a relationship, or with another person, or you're concerned, definitely share that with someone that you can trust.

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And I came to the Murder Suicide Loss Network, which we're going to talk about more in the upcoming podcast, and so MurderSuicideLossNetwork.org and we have peer support groups. And that's actually how Joni and I met. So, definitely reach out if you need some support.