Why Murder Suicides Happen - Untreated Mental Illness and Never Knowing Why

Murder suicide is the kind of tragedy that leaves all of us asking why. That's what we're figuring out by talking to the people who've lived through it unlike the often-sensational coverage of True Crime in the media the aim of our podcast is to give our viewers and our listeners an up close and personal accurate account of murder suicide the risk factors the personal experience and the aftermath on our podcast the real expert is a person who's lived through it, the Survivor.

In our third episode, premiering April 15, Joni Johnston, a forensic psychologist and private investigator, and Jacquelyn Jamason, a mental health professional, are our hosts. 

Episode 2 - Jenna brings us the story our "youngest" board member, Jenna. "Youngest" is tongue-and-cheek because of our board members, Jenna's lost was the most recent, September 2022.

Jenna discusses her brother's mental illness, and the complications they had making sure he was treated for his diagnoses. Jenna did everything she could to try to get her brother help, but sometimes our best isn't enough. When life went crashing downhill for her brother, it seemed there was nothing anyone could do to help him get better, feel better, or be safe. And then the worst possible happened.

Jenna attributes some of her strength to finding this group quickly, and knowing she wasn't alone in this group of survivors.

An Important start of Episode 3:  

Joni: I was reminded of just how different it is as somebody who writes a lot about true crime, how different it is to read about it versus hearing somebody's personal experience. And I think it's so important to get those personal stories out there because I just feel so differently, I think about things differently, when I'm meeting the people whose lives have been touched by it. And also, I think it was reminded of how much courage it takes to talk about these kinds of things. I mean, you know, it takes people years sometimes to talk about these things. And then of course there's sometimes the negative experiences they have talking about these stories, or the media and those kinds of things. So it's just, I'm in awe of the experts.

Jacque: Yeah I think it's going to be wonderful, a wonderful experience to meet them and hear from them. In particular because when you turn on Netflix, or whatever channel you're watching, and you're watching true crime we don't get to ask questions, we don't get to engage, it's more dramatized right.. And so, here, what I like about this platform, is we actually get to engage with each other and ask the important questions. And sometimes the curious questions but the person has an opportunity to share what they really want to share versus what the media might think is newsworthy or might get watched the most.

Joni: Initially when I talked to Jenna and was thinking about doing this particular episode, I had mixed feelings about it, and I think I did because as a psychologist and as a mental health advocate - whenever anything violent happens it just seems like the automatic tagline is essentially “mental health did it”, you know, somehow “mental illness was responsible.” And so, I'm so sensitive I think to trying to correct those misperceptions that oftentimes mental illness, number one, oftentimes middle illness is not responsible. And number two, if it is, it's untreated middle illness, it's not necessarily the middle illness itself.

And yet we also know that, particularly for some symptoms, that there is a correlation between some illnesses and violence. And so, I find myself as a professional, as an advocate, walking this fine line I feel like sometimes, or this tight rope, in terms of wanting to address this issue accurately, debunk some of the myths, and yet not sugarcoat things.

Jenna’s Quotes from Episode 3: 

In September of 2022 I lost my mother. And she was murdered in her home by my brother; who then killed himself two days later in prison. And this happened in Cape Cod Massachusetts. And shortly after my losses one of my doula colleagues found a support group for me to join. And I found it to be immensely helpful in the days, weeks, months, especially, after my losses. We all have a passion for telling our stories, but also for supporting other survivors who have lost family members, loved ones to murder-suicide. So we thought it was important to talk about it and to have a an open and honest discussion about what happened to us. And, hopefully, that will give other survivors the hope that they can get through their losses. And also the support and community that we all either had, or didn't have and hadn't wanted, after ours.

Early on in my brother's life he had a sexual assault incident, I think around five, and especially after that, but early, it was hard to be his sister. He had times that he was upset, and he would take that out on me, and on our family. He had trouble in school, he had he had trouble staying sober. I was not very close with him, I didn't feel… I think I actually was very close with him, but I didn't feel very close to him for a lot of our early life. It wasn't until our mid 20’s that I actually felt close to him, but I think that I was doing a lot of caretaking at that point. So if he was having a mental health crisis I might be the one to tell my parents “He’s having a mental health crisis. He needs to get in-patient. He needs help.” or “He needs to have his meds evaluated.”

When I was a child I didn't understand that he was sick. I did not understand that he had a severe mental illness until I was out of the house, so until I was 20. So instead, it was “I don't like him.” My mother used to say “Just be nice to him and he'll be nice to you.” And I did not find that to be true. I tried to be nice to him and I could get kitchen knives thrown at me when he was in a bad mood. And then when I moved out it could be that he would take his rage out on my mother. So there were there were doors that got locked, and then there were doors that got broken down. And again, it just kind of felt like “Oh he's just so mad and he's not a nice person.” And I didn't think, at the time, that there could be reasons why. I thought it was sort of an innate, the way he was born. Which is not fair. He grew up in the same household I did.

The Day Of: I talked to them that morning (of the murder), both of them, on the phone. And I texted my mother I said “He sounds manic. He sounds sick.” And she didn't think so. And then, that night he called me. And I wasn't sure what was going on I knew something was strange. So he had had these episodes of psychosis before where he truly believed that the house had blown up. He truly believed that there were men in hazmat suits cleaning up parts of a blown-up house. And then someone would go to the house, and he would be drunk or high or I don't know. And he would realize that this had not actually happened.

That night I was on the phone with him for hours before I realized that my mother was probably dead; that he had probably killed her. Before the realization I just thought he was having a manic episode because he'd been off his psych meds for so long. He rambled about his wife, he rambled about money, he kept telling me to come see him. And I just kept asking "where's Mom?" because I knew if I spoke to her she would reassure me that things we ok. But he wouldn't let me talk to her, and then said I couldn't talk to her. That couldn't was final.

And I ended up texting my husband and saying “We need to send a police officer to the house because something's going on. He's nervous and he's scaring me at this point. And I think that my mother might be dead.”

And I don't know how I put that together. So we did send the police there, and they did find my mother's body in the fire pit. And so, he had a standoff that night with the police. And he was arrested. And then from there he ended up in a prison, where he said he was not suicidal. And so, they only put him on 15-minute checks. So he was able to kill himself in between one of those 15-minute checks. Two days after he murdered our mother.

Red Flags: I was prepared for my brother to kill himself. Whether that was through alcohol, crashing a car, making a bad decision pissing someone off that might hurt him. I was nervous that he was going to hurt his family with him, perhaps in that car, perhaps. I was not concerned that he would hurt my mother.

My brother loved my mother more than anyone. I really believe that. Despite that they had, sometimes, a very difficult relationship.

We did not have guns. This was not a gun violence situation. And I'm very happy that I grew up in a gun-free household. I think if there had been a gun in our house, something could have happened sooner.

I think in terms of my brother: his mental health was the problem. That he was unstable, that he would have these psychosis episodes, delusions, hallucinations all of it. And that there wasn't a place that he could go that was truly safe; or there wasn't a place that he wanted to go that was truly safe. I've talked with therapists about in-patient housing and how difficult it is to get someone to stay. And especially people like my brother, where he could be personable enough that he could convince someone he was okay and healthy. And he wasn't. But no one ever asked me my opinion about, you know, “Do you think he's truly healthy?” Because my answer would have been “No.” So I think that there's a problem. But it's a personal rights problem, really. Because you can't, you can't make someone stay in an inpatient hospital at this point. So they're seen for such a short amount of time.

Being in prison was not a good place for him either. Where he could didn't have access to his medications, where he didn't have access to a therapist or a psychiatrist. There was no good place for him. There's no option that I think could have been helpful.

Grief Journey: I don't know what it's going to be like. So it's two and a half years, it's been almost. I don't know what it will be like at 5, or 10, or 15. So I don't know that I know where I am in my grief process. That said, things did get easier with my losses. And that's not, well I can't speak to anyone, I don't feel that that's sort of the typical trajectory after a murder-suicide. Is that someone will feel some relief. I felt relief that my brother was out of pain, mentally. I felt relief that I didn't have to do that caretaking anymore. I felt relief that I could live my life the way I wanted to without the judgment of my mother. I sort of got some freedom out of it. And in a way that has made it easier to cope with.

So initially, I just lost my mother, and I was very angry at my brother. That's sort of all I remember, aside from the crying on the floor. And then having to tell everybody that my mother had died and that my brother was the one that killed her. And then he died, and my anger disappeared and it was just sadness. Just so much sadness. Along, again, with that relief. Because it was over. I really am grateful that, she, my mother had the community that she had. My brother did not have a lot of friends he had maybe two. My mother had a had built herself a great big community in her area, and also outside of her area. So I had a lot of people who would call me and check on me. I have a lot of “aunties” I call them, you know, family of choice.

Absolutely. I carry around, I don't show it. But I've been told I'm good at, you know, keeping things - my outward appearance can be very calm when things inside my head are not. But I do carry around the weight of what happened. And sometimes I'm carrying around that weight and specifically trying not to talk about it. And specifically trying not to make that a part of my day. And other times it's just there, you know? And if I'm lying in bed and closing my eyes and thinking about it, you know, my brother killed my mother and then he killed himself. And that's awful.

Why Murder-Suicides Happen and Wanting Answers: I think a lot of people in these situations want the answer. And they want to know. And it can drive you crazy. and the hardest thing is just to say, “I don't know.” And he might not have known. Even if he could have, you know, even if he could tell me or left a note… who's to say that's again that the realities line up. It's tough. I have found, I tell people this, but I have found the writing… I've done some creative writing about this. And I have found it helpful just to work through what I think could have happened. Or like “Oh, no. That that probably doesn't make sense.” For me that has been a very helpful outlet. And just kind of, you know, deciding what is okay for me to think happened. I suggest that therapy practice, to write.

Importance of Mental Health Care: Mental illness, at least in my experience in my family was this shameful thing. But. it's like anything, it's like inheriting the BRACA gene. It's, you know, nobody is perfect. And certainly anyone's imperfections don't have to be an implicitly bad thing. So my hope is that the Mental Health Community, but I suppose that also goes to the Correctional Community, can find a way of helping families be safe. Without, you know, there's that fine line between somebody's personal freedoms as a human and, you know, having a family member say “I think this person might be a danger to themselves, or others, but haven't committed a crime,” you know, so my hope is that there's a movement towards having, you know, mental health treatment and not be so stigmatized and thus we can get people into a place where they're stabilized and safe. And I know it's going to be an uphill battle. And I know it's going to be an expensive one. And I know it's going to take a lot of training. And I know we're short staffed. But that's my that's kind of what I would like to say it's just that there's no shame in it. Let's treat it like cancer and let's make sure we have the best outcomes just like we do with most other medical issues.

MSLNetwork is a place, really the only place, I've found personally where I can talk about these complicated feelings I have with a group of people who did not have the same experience as me at all. But that's okay, you know? You get you get used to the faces {makes shocked faces}. Or those kind of things but in the in the group I can say I'm having conflictual feelings about this event. And even if other people don't they're like “Mm, okay.” I just find that to be so helpful and it's just this this tragedy, that again very different tragedies, that tie people together. And somehow seem to make people, survivors, just more compassionate.