Joni: Murder-suicide is the kind of tragedy that leaves everyone asking why that's what we're figuring out by asking the people who’ve lived through it unlike the often sensational coverage of True crime in the media our goal is to give our viewers and our listeners an inside and up close and personal look at the risk factors experience and aftermath of murder-suicide by talking to the real experts the ones who survived welcome to the Final Act.

 

I'm Dr Joni Johnston a forensic psychologist and private investigator and I got interested in this topic because I just kept coming across this over and over again. And I also was very interested in doing this podcast because I have a personal interest and a personal experience with suicide.. And so, I understand at least from that part of it the devastation that people feel and how complicated it can be to grieve the loss of a loved one. I also was really lucky enough to meet my co-host, Jacque Jameson, and I want to introduce her she's been a middle health professional for over two5 years. And after losing her daughter to murder-suicide 14 years ago she's dedicated her personal and professional life to addressing this topic in so many different ways, as an advocate, as a professional, as a therapist etc so good to see you again Jacque.

 

Jacque: Good to see you too

 

Joni: I was super glad to get our first podcast episode in the can last week. I wanted to know what you thought about it, you know, what you thought about it.

 

Jacque: My takeaway from last week was, it was just a really wonderful experience to kind of go through this process but also to talk about the history of the Murder Suicide Loss Network. And then, what it really made me think about was,, you know, I've been recovering from my own circumstances for 10 years and it wasn't until the last year or so that I actually came across anything online remotely related to what I had been through, in terms of a support group.. And so, I just feel like the most natural next step is to put ourselves out there doing something like this.. And so, I'm very excited and I hope that, you know, as we go along we'll work out some of the kinks and, you know, in order to get our message across in a very meaningful way, so that it will touch the people that it needs to touch. So that they can reach out and find support too. That's my goal.

 

Joni: Those are such important points I think. And also when you were talking, I was it reminded me of just how different it is as somebody who writes a lot about true crime, how different it is to read about it versus hearing somebody's personal experience. And I think it's so important to get those personal stories out there because I just feel so differently, I think about things differently, when I'm meeting the people whose lives have been touched by it. And also, I think it was reminded of how much courage it takes to talk about these kinds of things. I mean, you know, it takes people years sometimes to talk about these things. And then of course there's sometimes the negative experiences they have talking about these stories, or the media and those kinds of things. So it's just, I'm in awe of the experts that we're going to be having on our podcast and our YouTube channel over the next several weeks.

 

Jacque: Yeah I think it's going to be wonderful, a wonderful experience to meet them and hear from them. In particular because when you turn on Netflix, or whatever channel you're watching, and you're watching true crime we don't get to ask questions, we don't get to engage, it's more dramatized right.. And so, here, what I like about this platform, is we actually get to engage with each other and ask the important questions. And sometimes the curious questions but the person has an opportunity to share what they really want to share versus what the media might think is newsworthy or might get watched the most. So I'm very excited to talk about the different aspects of murder-suicide loss, and the different kinds of murder-suicide loss, and then hearing it directly from the people.

 

Joni: You know, our guest today, or our expert for today, is going to be telling a very different story than what we heard, which just really attest to what you were just saying about the fact that there's so many different stories about murder-suicide. And I got to tell, you know, initially when I talked to Jenna and was thinking about doing this particular episode, I had mixed feelings about it, and I think I did because, you know, as a psychologist and as a mental health advocate - whenever anything violent happens it just seems like the automatic tagline is essentially “mental health did it”, you know, somehow “mental illness was responsible.” And so, I'm so sensitive I think to trying to correct those misperceptions that oftentimes mental illness, number one, oftentimes middle illness is not responsible. And number two, if it is, it's untreated middle illness, it's not necessarily the middle illness itself.

 

And yet we also know that, particularly for some symptoms, that there is a correlation between some illnesses and violence. And so, I find myself as a professional, as an advocate, walking this fine line I feel like sometimes, or this tight rope, in terms of wanting to address this issue accurately, debunk some of the myths, and yet not sugarcoat things.

 

Jacque: Absolutely, you know, today when I was preparing for this show I was going through my mind about what we might talk about today and, our expert’s story a little bit… and I started to think about there's a difference between psychosis or, you know, mental illness and even, and psychopathy or sociopathy. And I think while some of those are, you know, can be in meshed or, you know, someone can be diagnosed with multiple things there's still a difference. And so, I think as we talk to the different experts, and the different survivors, and the people that have gone through these things we're going to start to see while there are patterns, there's also differences.

 

Joni: Absolutely and actually in preparation for today I thought I need to get my figures straight and make sure that, you know, the things I'm thinking are accurate or backed up by the research. And so, I did some research looking at, you know, what do we know about the relationship between mental illness and murder-suicide? And came across some pretty interesting things, I don't think any of them going to surprise you probably.

 

One of them being that about I guess, you know, 20% or less of people who commit murder-suicide have seen a mental health professional or have received any kind of psychiatric diagnosis. And that doesn't mean that the person hasn't experienced some symptoms, but they're less likely to go get some help. And that depression, again no surprise, tends to be the most prevalent diagnosis among people who have received treatment.

 

And to your point Jacque, you know, the prevalence of personality disorders was much higher than psychosis. And we've talked before a little bit I think last week about the fact that: what do we mean when we say, “mental illness caused it” or “mental illness was a factor”? Are we talking about everything in the DSM5? Are we talking about a severe mental illness like schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder, or schizoaffective disorder? Or are we including personality disorders and substance abuse and all those things?

 

And so, depending on how we define that, we can come up with a lot of different statistics. But it certainly doesn't seem like any, you know, severe mental illness, even a severe mental illness is, you know, is a major factor necessarily. It's always going to be a, you know, kind of a conglomeration of things. A cluster of things.

 

Jacque: You know, from a lay person's perspective I hear all the time, or a lot of the time from my friends and people that I talk to they say “Well (at least for my situation) she couldn't have been normal or not had problems in order to do what she did.”

 

And I hear that about other people too “Well, they had to be crazy.” Right. And so, is that true? And so, here, you know, we're going to talk to people to find out maybe a little bit deeper what is the truth. And at least in their circumstances.

 

Joni: yeah and I think there is a big difference between saying “This person is crazy” and “This person is unhappy.” Because I think we can probably say that nobody who is happy commits murder-suicide. That person is going through something at the time they're doing that but there's a huge discrepancy or difference between those two. And so, you're right I can I understand that, that we think that if you if you do something crazy you must be crazy. But it's a lot more complicated than that.

 

So I'm really happy want to bring Jenna on our guest because she's a star of our show in terms of telling her story. And I know that we have a lot to learn from her. So let's bring Jenna on and meet her.

 

Hi Jenna welcome to the show

 

Jenna: Hi thank you for having me

 

Joni: well thank you for coming on we have a lot to learn from you I know today and just wanted maybe to start out by having you tell us a little bit about yourself.

 

Jenna: Sure I'm a 39-year-old mother of one. I grew up outside of Boston Massachusetts. I used to work as a doula and currently I'm working as an advocate and writer.

 

Joni: you have your hands in a lot of different things sound like. So tell us, kind of, what brought you on our podcast, in terms of the situation that led up to coming on today.

 

Jenna: Sure. In September of 2022 I lost my mother. And she was murdered in her home by my brother, excuse me she, was murdered in her home by my brother; who then killed himself two days later in prison. And this happened in Cape Cod Massachusetts. And shortly after my losses one of my doula colleagues found a support group for me to join. And I found it to be immensely helpful in the days, weeks, months, especially, after my losses. So I asked to become an administrator of the group, and now I'm one of the three board members. And we all have a passion for telling our stories, but also for supporting other survivors who have lost family members, loved ones to murder-suicide. So we thought it was important to talk about it and to have a an open and honest discussion about what happened to us. And, hopefully, that will give other survivors the hope that they can get through their losses. And also the support and community that we all either had, or didn't have and hadn't wanted, after ours.

 

Joni: And so, tell me about your brother.

 

Jenna: Sure. My brother, his name was Adam. He was born in 1988. He had bipolar one, he had psychotic episodes, and he had, a bit prior to his passing, he had been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. So I think that he struggled a lot when he was a child, he struggled a lot when he was in high school, and he continued to struggle, I think, more as a 20-year-old and into his 30s. He had a love of cooking, he had a love of writing, he had recently started a family, which he wanted very badly. And then his life, which often spiraled, spiraled completely out of control.

 

Joni: So was this an older brother? Or younger brother?

 

Jenna: Younger brother, younger brother.

 

Joni: And what was your relationship like with him?

 

Jenna: Tricky. It was a tricky relationship. Early on in his life he had a sexual assault incident, I think around five, and especially after that, but early, it was hard to be his sister. He had times that he was upset, and he would take that out on me, and on our family. He had trouble in school, he had he had trouble staying sober. I was not very close with him, I didn't feel… I think I actually was very close with him, but I didn't feel very close to him for a lot of our early life. It wasn't until our mid 20’s that I actually felt close to him, but I think that I was doing a lot of caretaking at that point. So if he was having a mental health crisis I might be the one to tell my parents “He’s having a mental health crisis. He needs to get in-patient. He needs help.” or “He needs to have his meds evaluated.”

 

I was the one on the phone with him a lot, although I can't speak to how much he was on the phone with my parents. I was on the phone with him a lot making sure he was doing okay and seeing how he was. But it was not, again, I just never really felt very close to him.

 

Jacque: Jenna, thank you for being here. And it's been great to get to know you both as a, I guess, someone in the club, right. But also just getting to know your story more too as we share here, but also in the groups that we go to.

 

I'm curious about the dynamic in the family. I know you said it was hard. What was it like the dynamic of the family between the two of you and your parents? Or your brother and your mom? And were there was there violence, or domestic disputesk or anything when he was having those episodes?

 

Jenna: Yeah, so growing up I think I got a lot of the sort of domestic violence, if you will. If he was angry or frustrated he was most likely to take that out on me. With my mother, as he got older and I left the house, so as I said I was older, I was two and a halfish years older than him, so I left the house and I actually moved to Paris. Across the world so I could spend a year becoming myself, I think, when I was 18.

 

And so, when I left the house sort of a more codependent relationship, I think, started with my mother. It was, you know, my brother needed a lot of help to get through his days, in terms of just support. Having someone to call, having someone to talk to about things. And my mother was that person for him, most of the time. My father was very helpful at the practical parts of being a parent, or if my brother was having, he had many episodes where… I think that he would find himself in a situation he was, you know… I can think of one where he was on a porch and he was, you know, telling my dad he wanted to kill himself. And my dad had to call the police, and my dad had to show up, and my dad had to help get him into a hospital. My dad was good that part of the caretaking for my brother. My mother was good more at making sure he was comfortable, making sure he had clothes, and food, and was eating, and had a place to stay. She was providing the financial means to do that.

 

Jacque: I'm wondering, as you talk about this, are how are you feeling about either your brother or your mom? What comes up for you?

 

Jenna: I find it bittersweet. I think is the word that I use. It was hard being my brother's sister. And it was hard being my mother's daughter. And I know that a lot of people have complex relationships with their relatives. But I, as I mentioned, I did a lot of caretaking. I did there's a lot of emotional work that I did within my family trying to hold it together. or keep people safe, and keep people well. So when I think about being my mother's daughter, I'm thinking about the times I was trying to make her happy, the times I was trying to keep the peace, the times I was trying to stay out of the way. That was sort of my role in the family, most of the time, was to do things right, and do things the way she wanted.

 

And then when I think about my brother, I'm sad. I'm sad for him. I'm sad his life went the way it did. I'm sad he was sick and couldn't find, or keep, or get, the help to keep him safe.

 

Joni: You know, a couple of things came to mind for me when you were talking Jenna. One is: you mentioned caretaking, doing a lot of caretaking with your brother. And I was thinking “Oh there must be a huge difference in age because Jenna is doing so much caretaking.” And then I hear there was two and a half years difference and I'm thinking what story did you tell yourself as a kid? About what was going on with your brother? Because it's not like you were 10 years older and could understand, I would imagine, really what was going on.

 

Jenna: Right. I just didn't like him. I think that's how like my brain could process. I didn't understand that he was sick. I did not understand that he had a severe mental illness until I was out of the house, so until I was 20. So instead, it was “I don't like him.” My mother used to say “Just be nice to him and he'll be nice to you.” And I did not find that to be true. I tried to be nice to him and I could get kitchen knives thrown at me when he was in a bad mood. And then when I moved out it could be that he would take his rage out on my mother. So there were there were doors that got locked, and then there were doors that got broken down. And again, it just kind of felt like “Oh he's just so mad and he's not a nice person.” And I didn't think, at the time, that there could be reasons why. I thought it was sort of an innate, the way he was born. Which is not fair. And he grew up in the same household I did.

 

We do have some genetic factors for mental illness, and for alcoholism. Which I did not know about. But it was it just it was hard to process as a kid. It was very hard until recently to process it.

 

Joni: So around the time that your brother murdered your mom, how involved were you with the family? What did you think was going on? How aware were you of what was going on?

 

Jenna: I had moved from Massachusetts to California in 2019. And I was there until 2021. So, like I mentioned, I had talked to my family on the phone, we did Zoom calls. But I had felt I had gotten away. And then my current, now, husband wanted to move home. We had been talking about perhaps having a family. We wanted to be near our parents, who were getting older. So we moved back to Massachusetts two months before our wedding. And a month later I got a phone call from my brother, who often called me when he was overwhelmed. He had us come to from Massachusetts to Vermont, where he his wife and daughter were living. To help them move out of a house that they had decided to no longer rent. But they didn't really have a place to go. So my husband and I went to Vermont to help them move. And it was the scariest weekend of my life, leading up into the weekend of the murder.

 

My brother was clearly drunk, he was clearly using drugs, he was acting erratically. He would be nice to my husband and then turn to me and his face would change and he'd say “You need to, you need to get out of here. You need to leave.” But I had been tasked with watching his child, his two-year-old, and I didn't want to leave his two-year-old daughter in this situation. So we stayed for several days, we helped them move into a Airbnb. And then we had to come back to Massachusetts to do some wedding planning. To get some of those things done. So we had to leave, and we asked his wife if she would come with us and bring their baby. And she said “No.”

 

So my husband and I left, and I think it was two days later, he, my brother assaulted his wife. Which, we ended up being involved in. So he was arrested, and we went back to Vermont, and we tried again to help his wife move back to Massachusetts, where her family was. And she wouldn't come.

 

And then we were dealing with my brother who is in prison. And not being given his medications. And calling my mother all the time to get money or to, you know, money for commissary and lawyers. And it was very confusing, in that, we knew he assaulted his wife, but she could sometimes be unreliable. She was also using so it was hard to know what had actually happened.

 

I got married... He got out of prison was under house arrest at my mother's house… and we tried to get him into a mental health facility near where I grew up. And we had all the appointments with the doctors, he was prepared to go in, and then he ran away. He became homeless for about three months. He pawned, I think, his phones. He would get money from my, you know, he'd use someone else's phone to call my father, get money, which he would probably spend on drugs. He and his wife had several altercations. They got arrested a couple times. And then he went inpatient on September 22nd, I remember because I had done a an embryo transfer that day. And he called and said, “I need to go to the hospital” and I said, “I'm at the hospital, get an ambulance.” And so, he did go in patient for two days and then they released him. And about a week later, he went back to my mother's house.

 

I talked to them that morning, both of them, on the phone. And I texted my mother I said “He sounds manic. He sounds sick.” And she didn't think so. And then, that night he called me. And I wasn't sure what was going on I knew something was strange. So he had had these episodes of psychosis before where he truly believed that the house had blown up. He truly believed that there were men in hazmat suits cleaning up parts of a blown-up house. And then someone would go to the house, and he would be drunk or high or I don't know. And he would realize that this had not actually happened.

 

So I wasn't sure when I asked, you know, “Where's our mom?” because I was trying to get my brother help, get someone looking at him. And he would say “She's out with a friend.” And I believed him. But then he kept talking to me, and the conversation kept getting stranger. Until the next door neighbor drove up to her house. And then he told me she was walking towards him. And I asked “Why?” and he said “Because he was having a fire near the house.” and I was like “Okay this is something people do on Cape Cod, we have fire pits.” And he got very nervous, and he talked to her and he was very nervous. And he's like “She's going to call the fire department.” and I was like “Okay, where's our mother? And like, how big is this fire you're having?” And I didn't, and he started to get very nervous. And he’s like “I can hear the sirens coming.”

 

And I ended up texting my husband and saying “We need to send a police officer to the house because something's going on. He's nervous and he's scaring me at this point. And I think that my mother might be dead.”

 

And I don't know how I put that together. So we did send the police there, and they did find my mother's body in the fire pit. And so, he had a standoff that night with the police. And he was arrested. They could see him drinking, they could see him snorting something. And after, I think, three or four hours they did arrest him and send him to the hospital. And then from there he ended up in a prison, where he said he was not suicidal. And so, they only put him on 15-minute checks. So he was able to kill himself in between one of those 15-minute checks. Two days after he murdered our mother.

 

All that to say, I was prepared for my brother to kill himself. Whether that was through alcohol, crashing a car, making a bad decision pissing someone off that might hurt him. I was nervous that he was going to hurt his family with him, perhaps in that car, perhaps, you know, I was not concerned that he would hurt my mother.

 

If there was any person, you know, my brother loved my mother more than anyone. I really believe that. Despite that they had, sometimes, a very difficult relationship. Despite that she was more effectively his, you know, his jailer he was supposed to be living in her house. He was supposed to be living under her rules. It was not on my radar that he would hurt her.

 

Jacque: Thank you for sharing all of that. That that's a lot to kind of “unpack” as we say. You know, a lot of people would say at this point “Were there were there any red flags that, you know, he other than everything you've already told us that he might have done something like this?” I mean was there it I don't know, you don't have to go into detail but, you know, some people might say “Well that's why we shouldn't have guns.” Or, you know, “He shouldn't have weapons.” Or “He should have been locked up a long time ago.” Or things like that.

 

And so, in your in your advocacy work what are some things that you feel may have helped, or previously to any kind of, you know, prevention in this situation?

 

Jenna: We did not have guns. This was not a gun violence situation. And I'm very happy that I grew up in a gun-free household. I think if there had been a gun in our house, something could have happened sooner.

 

I think in terms of my brother: his mental health was the problem. That he was unstable, that he would have these psychosis episodes, delusions, hallucinations all of it. And that there wasn't a place that he could go that was truly safe; or there wasn't a place that he wanted to go that was truly safe. I've talked with therapists about in-patient housing and how difficult it is to get someone to stay. And especially people like my brother, where he could be personable enough that he could convince someone he was okay and healthy. And he wasn't. But no one ever asked me my opinion about, you know, “Do you think he's truly healthy?” Because my answer would have been “No.” Ao I think that there's a problem. But it's a personal rights problem, really. Because you can't, you can't make someone stay in an inpatient hospital at this point. Ao they're seen for such a short amount of time and then they're released. If they want to be released because that's, you know, that's a freedom.

 

I also though being in prison was not a good place for him either. Where he could didn't have access to his medications, where he didn't have access to a therapist or a psychiatrist. There was no good place for him at the moment. There's no option that I think could have been helpful.

 

Joni: I think that's one of the most difficult things about adults, certainly, who are experiencing mental health symptoms and don't want treatment. Or don't want to take medication. Is there's that competition, really, that competing “I have the right unless I'm actively suicidal or homicidal.” And that's a pretty difficult thing to prove. Especially like you said, you know, 48-72 hours, and at the same time the safety of that person, and safety of the people around them. If they aren't making threats, if they're not aggressive, they're not agitated, they're not experiencing those kind of symptoms. It's very difficult, I think. And I hear that a lot. That it's not, people sometimes do reach out, it's oftentimes the brothers, the sisters, the parents, the wives, or the husbands who are desperate to get some kind of for their loved one, but the loved one doesn’t want it. And sometimes I think it's part of their symptoms. Especially mania which can feel good at the beginning at least for, you know, for some people. That they don't want to take medication. So there's a very difficult problem, I think.

 

Jenna: And I think for us, my mother liked to focus on the addiction and the substance abuse. So when my brother had to miss my wedding, because he was in prison, it was “Oh tell people he's in rehab.” Because, somehow, that was easier to tell to the public rather than “He's in prison because he assaulted his wife.” I mean, it does seem obvious that someone might, you know, point to the addiction rather than an assault. But I think not being honest about it leads… the secrecy about it leads can lead to an even bigger problem. A lot of my mother's friends, her family, you know, we heard “I didn't know he was this sick.” Or “I didn't know that he was capable of this.” “I didn't know.”

 

And I was, you know, they never asked me. They never said “What's really happening with your brother? How come he's not here?” They just accepted he's in rehab.

 

Jacque: Did you feel like you couldn't talk about it because of the, you know, sort of the secrecy? This unspoken “We don't talk about it outside.” That must have been really hard. I know, you know, from my own circumstances, I look back and it was it was silence, you know? It was because of the shame, or the embarrassment or the, you know, whatever it was the projection of think needing things to be seen as good on the outside. And I think that was mentioned last week too. So I'm wondering if that's going to be a theme. Something that we see across the board.

 

Joni: It's interesting that you're bringing that up. My father had bipolar disorder. And growing up I don't ever remember telling anybody that. As a teenager, my dad was diagnosed when I was 13. I don't know that I did I have no memory of that. And the tragic part of that in a way was that it was only in my 30’s I met another psychologist whose mother had been diagnosed with a severe mental illness, and she took me to a NAMI meeting. And what was astonishing is hearing some of the same challenges. And some of the same symptoms. And some of the same behaviors that my dad had exhibited, you know, for years. And yet, my mom I think had a very limited understanding of what was going on with my dad. And so, she kind of would blame, on the one hand she kind of tried to help him and prop him up, and hide things, and on the other hand she would always I think a part of her would refuse to believe it was an illness. So she would kind of hold him responsible for all that. And so, it was astonishing to me to hear some of those same things and just realize that a lot of that was the illness my dad had. And I didn't really realize that for years and because there was such a shame around it. Shame in our family it was we have to hide this or cover it up. Because I don't what it is it's like did my parent my mom think that people were going to catch it? If we talked to I don't know, I don't know where that shame is. It's still there, obviously the stigma around about middle illness. And I just wonder, you know, what it's going to take for that like things like this I guess, you know, people talking about it more openly for that to start changing.

 

Jenna: I agree. I think my mother was very concerned withhold things appeared. It didn't matter how they were... I liken it to teeth. She was very concerned about our teeth. If our teeth looked good. But she didn't, you know, care that my brother was mentally ill. Not she didn't care, pardon. You couldn't see that you can't see someone's brain, you know, so if they've got good-look teeth it must all be okay.

 

Jacque: I'm wondering if part of it is that we so desperately want our loved ones to be okay. And sometimes it it's easier to pretend. And I think too, we're in it every day and we rationalize things and sweep it under the rug. And “Oh well it's not that bad today it's not as bad as today as it was a week ago or six months ago.” And so, it just keeps going, and going, and going.

 

Joni: And then I think that's such a such a great point that both of you are making and the other part of it is I wonder, particularly, as a parent. I think parents do feel so responsible for the outcome of their children. And so, what does it say, I wonder, what it would have said to your mom to think that “Well this is my son look how he turned out. He's having problems with this, he's having problems with that.” And that would, I think, or could, certainly, contribute to her not wanting to really look at things where they were. Because it might, in her mind mean, she was responsible. Or did all these things wrong. Or she was a bad parent. Or those kind of things.

 

Jenna: Definitely. I also I mean, no one's no one is perfect. Certainly. My mother also had drug and alcohol issues. And I think it can also be a way of hiding your own shortcomings, your own addictions, your own whatever it is. Putting the attention, on something else certainly something else good. You know, “Look at look at this.” Or it often was towards me when I was behaving well which I didn't always do in my early 20s, you know, it was “Jenna's getting married to a, you know, a tall handsome some guy who went to Harvard.” It was like “Look over there yeah, you know, don't look.” Which was hard on me. It was hard on him too, I think. There was a lot of competition, there was a lot of, between Adam and I. Because we were very close in age. It was, you know, for him - I know from speaking to his best friend, there was a lot of he rushed into doing some things: having a baby, getting married. To do them first. And I think, probably, to get that attention back on to him. And it's hard. It's a hard place. It was hard for me, it was hard for him, and I don't know how hard it was for my mother to just aim the viewpoint at whoever seemed healthiest at the moment.

 

Jacque: Jenna what was… it's only been a couple of years what has the fallout been? And where would you say you are in your grief process?

 

Jenna: I don't know what it's going to be like. So it's two and a half years, it's been almost. I don't know what it will be like at 5, or 10, or 15. So I don't know that I know where I am in my grief process. That said, things did get easier with my losses. And that's not, well I can't speak to anyone, I don't feel that that's sort of the typical trajectory after a murder-suicide. Is that someone will feel some relief. I felt relief that my brother was out of pain, mentally. I felt relief that I didn't have to do that caretaking anymore. I felt relief that I could live my life the way I wanted to without the judgment of my mother. I sort of got some freedom out of it. And in a way that has made it easier to cope with. And if I hadn't gotten the freedom that I have, it would absolutely not have been as easy. But I was able to stop working. I was able to, that embryo transfer I did have a miscarriage, I kept going forward with IVF. I got pregnant. I had my baby and I've been able to stay home with her. Do some work, but be home and that was something that I wouldn't have been afforded without, if I hadn't lost my mother. So, well that is a is a tricky situation to be in. That has given me something to look forward to every day, is to towards that IVF transfer, towards being pregnant, towards having a baby. And that's the way that I keep going and I think that something I can give back is being in this group and making sure these support meetings happen every other week. And making sure that we're there for people right after their losses happen. And that's something that I can do and give back to the community of people who are not having as easy of a time as I am.

 

Joni: One thing I wondered Jenna, is two things. One is how it impacted you immediately when you realize kind of what happened? And how did other people respond people around you other family friends?

 

Jenna: so initially I just lost my mother, and I was very angry at my brother. That's sort of all I remember, aside from the crying on the floor. And then having to tell everybody that my mother had died and that my brother was the one that killed her. And then he died, and my anger disappeared and it was just sadness. Just so much sadness. Along, again, with that relief. Because it was over. I really am grateful that, she, my mother had the community that she had. My brother did not have a lot of friends he had maybe two. My mother had a had built herself a great big community in her area, and also outside of her area. So I had a lot of people who would call me and check on me. I have a lot of “aunties” I call them, you know, family of choice. They checked on me, they were very good at checking on me often right after. They wanted to talk about her, they wanted to tell me stories, they wanted to make sure I was okay. It was very nice and then, you know, the calls taper off. And you kind of get left alone so I started writing. I started taking writing classes, and I started writing, and I started putting down the story. And doing some research about matricide, and murder-suicide, and mental health and that was my way of coping with it. Not everybody understands. And I think a lot of people that do understand that I am writing about it knew my mother and knew my brother very differently than I did. So I'm telling my version of the story knowing that the people that I knew them to be, are not the versions of the people that, you know, my mother's friends knew her to be. That people, most people didn't know my brother. But certainly that's, you know, maybe not what they thought of him.

 

Jacque: I'm curious about that part of it, you know, because what we talked about earlier in terms of sometimes we hold those secrets. And we don't tell the world what's really going on. And then when we finally do and it's after the fact… have you gotten, you know, “You don't need to dramatize it.” or “Don't make it more than it was.” or, you know, “Why didn't you say anything?” or thoughts that people might not believe you even.

 

Jenna: No. I haven't told my story yet, still writing, so people don't have a lot to go on yet. But the people that know that I'm writing have, you know, have said like “Well she was always wonderful to me.” And that's good, I think, that's fine. No, people haven't really said much. People want to tell me what they remember. And the people who do know how I feel about it, how conflicted, I am about my feelings, actually just seem kind of sad. They didn't know. And they have learned who I am as my own person and are supportive of me. And I'm grateful for that. My mother's family have not been super supportive. I don't know if it's because she was hiding a lot of things from them, again how sick my brother was, but also we, I found out about six months after she died that I was donor conceived. And this had been a big family secret, that my brother and I were donor conceived. And I think some people were, you know, we were surprised at this secret. I was very surprised but, you know, so it's like well “This is something she didn't tell me.” And the people that knew her secret were compassionate as I learned about it.  And the people that didn't know, I think it probably just adds “Well what else didn't she tell me?” And I think that the tricky part is that I'm her daughter, so I can get kind of lumped in with her. So, you know, if someone is frustrated that my mother didn't tell these secrets, you know… 

 

Joni: Where was your dad in all of this?

 

Jenna: That’s a good question. My father has sort of always been a passive member of our family. That's who he is. He's quiet, he's passive, he's… my parents got a divorce about 10 years ago. So they had been separated, and legally divorced, and living in separate houses. She took her friends; he took his friends. And a lot of my father's friends didn't approve of my brother, didn't approve of my mother. So he had made, a sort of, a separate life for himself. And he compartmentalized that. And I think that's his way of coping. And I think that's his way of dealing is, to sort, of put on the rose-colored glasses and see the good. But I think that's a genuine thing for him. I don't think it's trying to draw attention to the good. I think that's his way of living his life, is to focus on the good.

 

Jacque: Maybe his way of coping.

 

Jenna: Certainly, his way of coping.

 

Joni: Separate from some of the things you've talked about, in terms of in some respects, some of the relief that you got from what happened. Do you feel like that the murder of suicide itself has changed you in any way?

 

Jenna: Absolutely. I carry around, I don't show it. But I've been told I'm good at, you know, keeping things - my outward appearance can be very calm when things inside my head are not. But I do carry around the weight of what happened. And sometimes I'm carrying around that weight and specifically trying not to talk about it. And specifically trying not to make that a part of my day. And other times it's just there, you know? And if I'm lying in bed and closing my eyes and thinking about it, you know, my brother killed my mother and then he killed himself. And that's awful. So there's this heavy, heaviness to it. Sometimes my way of coping is to make light of what happened. Sometimes my way of coping is to not think about it, not talk about it actively though, because then you're thinking about it still. But in in general yeah, I mean, it's just there it's there and you carry it with you and then the people I do share it with, I might say something to someone, I lived in my mother's house for a while after she died. And I had this baby, so I was seeing a physical therapist, and I mentioned to the physical therapist that I'm that person that this happened to. It's a small community and the physical therapist mentioned that they have a family member who lives with a mother and it's, you know, hearing that story they were concerned, you know, there's always that concern will this happen to me? I have a mentally ill family member I have a mother caretaker… so sometimes I have to weigh which coping mechanism I'm going to go with. Am I going to go with the share the story you don't know who needs to hear about it. Or am I going to go with the keep your personal stories to yourself. I still haven't found that balance yet. But again it's always there. It's always “Am I going to talk about it?” Am I gonna perhaps save this person from carrying my heavy weight? Or am I going to, if I share it, is it gonna perhaps open, you know, lift someone's burden and be able to talk about a mentally ill family member? And be able to talk about their worries with someone who's been through their worst fear. I think that's the tough part about it.

 

Jacque: That's a pretty common a pretty common response I think, you know, yeah for those of us who have who have experienced this, and it and it does continue, the questions that is right? I've met so many people that say, “thank you so much for sharing that with me I had a similar situation.” And then they'll share their situation with me. Maybe not murder-suicide but some other tragedy or loss that they've had. And it gives them permission to share. Or help someone who maybe is in a situation where they need to get help for their loved one. And so, that this doesn't happen, but I think we just have to listen to our gut in that moment and do it for ourselves, and what feels right for us. Because it's a lot to carry, to try and make that decision for everyone else. But it is hard sometimes too, right, when you tell someone and then they're like “Oh man, I'm so sorry, that's terrible, I couldn't imagine”, you know? And then we go on this whole down this whole road and that's hard too, right, so I totally understand where you're coming from. I think it really is just in each moment following, you know, that feel your feelings around it because it's just hard to know. That's why I appreciate you talking about that because that is true.

 

Joni: it almost seems to me like the important thing is having the option to share it, you know? Almost having the freedom internally to share it if you choose to, is so important. One question I had and this is maybe just my own personality coming through but just, you know… Questions in terms of why it happened? Or how it happened? Because you had mentioned earlier, Jenna, that, you know, you had all concerns about your brother. He's going to kill himself, he's going to or he's going to put himself in a dangerous situation and get murdered and or he's going to hurt his family either directly or indirectly. But you said you “I know how much my brother loved my mom and that just wasn't on my radar.” And yet it happened.

 

And so, how did you or have you thought about that? Since then, I guess, about the actual act itself? Or, I guess, I was thinking…

 

Jenna: about the actual act itself or?

 

Joni: But I think I was just more like: How that happened? You know, what happened before? Or, you know, maybe I'm think I'm probably asking questions that nobody can answer. But I just wonder… how what sense you've made of it, I guess .

 

Jenna: I, we don't know. I know that my mother had a friend over while she was making dinner that afternoon. I know, roughly, when the friend left. And she remembers the state of where my mother had been in the cooking process. And actually she went back to the house after the murder. So the murder occurred, and the police were there, and then they, you know, they go through the whole house looking for evidence, and they tear it apart. And my mother had this lovely community where I think it's like 10 or 12 of her friends went and put the house back together. So that by the time I got there it was not a murder scene, it was not a crime scene. It was actually cleaner than I had last seen it, maybe ever seen it. But she was, this friend, was able to tell me that the kitchen had not changed. It was left the same way that, when she left the day before.

 

So my brother had been… he was separated from his wife and living in my mother's house. and there had been again some signs that day that he was, he had beliefs that were not true. He believed that his wife was somewhere that he didn't like, and he had been talking that day about getting a divorce. And my mother was on board with the divorce. She thought that them separating legally was a good idea. So my, kind of, assumption is that they had a conversation about my brother's relationship it didn't go well, you know, after, as she was making dinner -before she made the dinner. And I assume he got mad. Again, I'm not sure. He was, where he was mentally, at the time there's very, you know, signs that he was in a psychotic break, that he perhaps didn't, you know, was not… my reality and his reality, you know, our reality and his reality were different. My assumption is that he got mad, I don't know, this is pure speculation that there was, you know, an argument and a push. And there's no blood in the crime scene, there's no crime, there's no weapon. And then something in his brain told him that the best thing to do was to destroy the evidence. And the easiest way to do that is with, you know, a gas can and a match. So that was the evidence that we found. There's no cause of death noted in the coroner's report, because of the state of the body. they were able to identify it as her. There's just there's no way to know and now because he's dead… but even if he wasn't, I don't know that he could have been able to tell us what actually happened. I'm not sure when we were on the phone that night, I think part of him knew what had happened and part of him might have been confused about where my mother was and what he was doing. It's very hard to know.

 

Joni: I really appreciate you sharing all those details, Jenna, because I know that was hard. And I just, you know, it's so hard I think to let go of the thought, at least for me sometimes, if I just understand it, if I just find some way to understand it that it's going to be better. And yet we know that that's not true. And that we oftentimes never know exactly what happened or what that person was thinking or feeling at the time.

 

Jenna: I think a lot of people in these situations want the answer. And they want to know. And it can drive you crazy. and the hardest thing is just to say, “I don't know.” And he might not have known. Even if he could have, you know, even if he could tell me or left a note… who's to say that's again that the realities line up. It's tough. I have found, I tell people this, but I have found the writing… I've done some creative writing about this. And I have found it helpful just to work through what I think could have happened. Or like “Oh, no. That that probably doesn't make sense.” For me that has been a very helpful outlet. And just kind of, you know, deciding what is okay for me to think happened. I suggest that therapy practice to write.

 

Jacque: What a great therapeutic tool. I like that you get to make the story what you want it to be. What do you think you would like to tell, you have the world right now at your fingertips, like is there anything that you want to share? That you would think people should know about any of this?

 

Jenna: Thank you for asking that question. Yeah I think, as we discussed the secrecy… You know, mental illness, at least in my experience in my family was this shameful thing. And again we were donor conceived so we didn't necessarily know half, the story. It's like anything, it's like inheriting the BRACA gene. It's, you know, nobody is perfect. And certainly anyone's imperfections don't have to be an implicitly bad thing. So my hope is that the Mental Health Community, but I suppose that also goes to the Correctional Community, can find a way of helping families be safe. Without, you know, there's that fine line between somebody's personal freedoms as a human and, you know, having a family member say “I think this person might be a danger to themselves, or others, but haven't committed a crime,” you know, so my hope is that there's a movement towards having, you know, mental health treatment and not be so stigmatized and thus we can get people into a place where they're stabilized and safe. And I know it's going to be an uphill battle. And I know it's going to be an expensive one. And I know it's going to take a lot of training. And I know we're short staffed. But that's my that's kind of what I would like to say it's just that there's no shame in it. Let's treat it like cancer and let's make sure we have the best outcomes just like we do with most other medical issues.

 

Jacque: Thank you

 

Joni: Yeah that was very interesting it's about time for us to stop thank you again for being on but also wanted to make sure that you can let people watching and listening how to find the group and how helpful as you started out today talking about the support group that you're involved in

 

Jenna: We have a website it's www.murdersuicidelossnetwork.org. I think the coolest thing about the group currently is that we're all peer-to-peer. So you go on our website, and you fill out a little “intake request” we call it. And you meet with two members of our board and we, you know, let people know how the group works and then they're invited in. And it's a place, really the only place, I've found personally where I can talk about these complicated feelings I have with a group of people who did not have the same experience as me at all. But that's okay, you know? You get you get used to the faces {makes shocked faces}. Or those kind of things but in the in the group I can say I'm having conflictual feelings about this event. And even if other people don't they're like “Mm, okay.” I just find that to be so helpful and it's just this this tragedy, that again very different tragedies, that tie people together. And somehow seem to make people, survivors, just more compassionate.

 

Anyway, I have found this group to be a great help to me and it's something I said to Mitch, our president, I want to join you and help you because it needs to continue. Just to be there for people for however long it's helpful. But, unfortunately with the statistics being the way they are - there's maybe two a day, murder-suicides, so there's always going to be people looking for support, so we just need to keep being there.

 

Jacque: Thank you so much. I know it's yeah it's never easy to come and put it all out there and I know you have supports available to you because it's always hard to come and talk about it and then, you know, walk away on to the next thing. So thank you. I appreciate your.

 

Joni: I just echo what Jacque said about what an honor it was to have you on sharing your expertise thank you for joining us for this episode of the Final Act. We'd love to hear from you. If you have a story you'd like to tell, please contact us.