TRANSCRIPT
(edited for clarity)

Joni: I'm Dr Joni Johnson a forensic psychologist and private investigator and I'd like to welcome my partner in crime, if you will, my co-host Jacqueline Jameson to the show good to see you again Jacque

Jacque: good to see you too thank you always a pleasure

Joni: It really is I'm feel like we're really getting to know each other as we co-host our show together which I'm really enjoying

Jacque: Yes me too and learning a lot as well

Joni: I am too. I am too. And I think it's really interesting that both of us are mental health professionals and also that both of us have some lived experience in this area. And I think that makes our show unique. And the fact that both of us are pretty open in talking about our experience, fortunately for me, my experience is more with suicide, and not murder-suicide, and I know you lost your daughter 10 years ago to murder-suicide. So I feel like I'm learning a lot every time we have a guest or expert come on.

Jacque: Yeah for sure. Every time I talk to somebody who has experienced this, no matter what the scenario,, you know, and everyone's individual and unique, it reminds me of some things that either I forgotten or I, maybe, swept under the rug, or didn't pay attention to. And so it has been it has been good. It's always it can sometimes bring up, of course, emotions and feelings around everything that happened but I think it's very important to give people a voice. And I think this is the perfect platform to do that.

Joni: I think so too. And I think our ultimate goal of course is to not only help people heal, but to prevent these kinds of things from happening. And I was telling you before we started recording that I had come across a couple of really tragic situations, even over the past couple of days, a mom in Chesapeake had had killed her three children and herself. And whenever I read things like that I just feel such a desperate, I guess a couple of things, a desperate to need to just figure out ways to stop this from happening. And also there's just that ongoing question of why? You know, why? I don't know that we're ever going to find the answer sometimes to some of these questions. And I also think what I'm finding, even in the few episodes we've had so far, is the fact that depending upon your relationship, or my relationship, or our expert's relationship, to the perpetrator or to the victim, the perspective can be so different.

Jacque: Yeah and, you know, when you were just saying that I was thinking my perpetrator is still alive. She's incarcerated for life. And I could ask the question “why?” to her. And I have thought about that over the last 10 years. I don't know that that would still get me the answer even, the answer that I need to hear or that I want to hear. But definitely, I do hope that we can somehow come up with some set of trigger points or red flags, or if you see this, or if you hear this - then here's something that you can do. Because it's happening more often, and more often, every day.

Joni: It seems like it really is. And, you know, this whole issue of risk factors and looking for warning signs, I think is very interesting. I know that Dr Joiner, who is kind of a pioneer in this field, I think we've mentioned him before in this podcast, has often, I think, been credited with saying, you know, “Suicide prevention is murder-suicide prevention.” And I wanted to get your thoughts about that statement. What do you think about that?

Jacque: I think that there is definitely some truth to that. I don't know if it's 100% going to keep this from happening. Because there are times when there aren't any signs at all. And I think we're going to hear that from our next expert. That there really weren't any signs. There are people who work in our fields, who work in our industry, that un-alive themselves. Who decide they're are they're going to take their own life. No red flags. They have all the tools. So I think there is a certain percentage of this group that that that we just don't know. We just don't know, you know what was going on in their mind. And I'm looking forward to actually talking with La Toya about this. Because this is something that she talks about in her book and on her podcast. And when she tells her story is the “Why? “What?” “How come I didn't see anything?” “How come nobody else saw anything?”

Joni: And I think that's such a tricky thing because, you know, we all know that hindsight is, you know, 2020. And so it's sometimes easier to look back and see signs that potentially were there. And then sometimes they are there. And then people don't know what to do with them, like “What does what does this mean exactly?” And so, I think the other thing about that statement that that I have mixed feelings about so on the one hand I think the research supports the fact that most people who end up perpetrating murder-suicide tend to be suicidal first and then start developing this idea. So I understand that perspective from it. But I also think that there may be some unique factors, or some unique risk factors, in murder-suicide that aren't necessarily there. And, you know, we're going to be talking to La Toya as you mentioned. And I wonder sometimes if men sometimes, you know, if suicidal thoughts don't necessarily look the same. Or are not spoken or those risk factors, you know, may not be as apparent. I don't know that that's true. I'm gonna look we need to probably it's a probably good research question to look at. But I think there's probably some differences there.

Jacque: You know what word just came into my mind and I don't know that it exists, but I wonder if sometimes people kill out of compassion, a compassion kill. So in other words when somebody takes their partner, or somebody takes their children, maybe they don't want them to suffer after they kill themselves. And so, that just popped in my mind. And maybe that is part of it right? I know that there are a lot of other reasons people decide to take someone else's life in addition to their own. Jealousy, retribution, mental health… there are lots of reasons why people do it. But I wonder if sometimes there is a sense of “I don't want this person to have to suffer.”

Joni: You know, I think that, just thinking along some of the research I've done for some articles I've written about murder-suicide, it seemed like some of the early research suggested that. That there was a sense of, you know, particularly among people who were elderly, for example, and you have somebody who's about to go into a nursing home, or this person's health is declining. And so there was this almost this sense of this is a either a suicide pact to some or this was kind of like you said an attempt to alleviate suffering. And yet, my understanding is that more recently what we've realized is that there may be a distortion of that in that person's mind. But oftentimes there was this history of coercive control and those kinds of things. And so I think when we take a step back maybe I think this distorted thinking can happen, where people start thinking “If my husband gets custody” for example, you know, “My kids would be ruined” or “Their lives would be intolerable.” Or whatever. But when you think about it is that love? Is that really a “mercy killing”? No, it's not, right? So it's a perversion, I think, or a distortion of thinking that might occur. But I think there's something underneath that more, I guess, self-serving in a way. It's more about, ultimately, about that person and their needs, than it is about the than the person that they're thinking or are trying to help or prevent from suffering in some way.

Jacque: You know, we're going to talk a little bit about the Murder-Suicide Loss Network group, and we've talked about it in the past one of the topics that has come up recently is about what we experience after the loss of family members, or close friends, or whoever it, is because of murder-suicide. And I can speak for myself: every everything was ripped apart so, you know, that the family was ripped apart, I lost a child, another child was injured, you know, my ex of 20 years was arrested there just so many things happen. And so in the recovery part of that, the first year in particular, I understand the feeling of not wanting to live, you know, I understand so deeply, emotionally, mentally, and physically that hurt, and that pain that feels unbearable. And there were times when I felt like I can't do this anymore and I did go there in my head. So what comes up in group is, because of the losses that we experience and the grief and the heartache, physical pain that you want to go away. We can understand why somebody would do this. The question still remains then, “Why take someone else with you?”

Joni: I think that is such a good question. And I think as one, as mental health professionals, that there needs to be a lot more education around, in terms of when you're looking at those risk factors when somebody's coming in. I think it's very difficult as a middle health professional when somebody's coming in and they're talking about feeling suicidal or feeling depressed or wanting to escape from pain: to ask that question, you know, “When you think about doing this, do you think about taking somebody with you?” We're not taught, at least I wasn't I'll speak for myself, I wasn't taught to ever ask that question and yet I think it's really important question to ask. Because I do think that question sometimes is that bridge between, you know, suicidal thoughts and homicidal thoughts and how close together they can be for people. Particularly depending upon what's going on, if it involves some kind of interpersonal conflict, it shouldn't be a surprise right? To think that those two could be close together.

Jacque: Right well in some of the crisis work that I do now, in my other job that I do, we mandated to ask every single person that calls, because it is a call line: “Are you having thoughts of hurting yourself?” Killing yourself or killing someone else?” And we actually use those words instead of “hurting yourself” or “hurting someone else” because words matter. And it sounds harsh but it's important to ask.

Joni: Let's bring La Toya in, our “expert” as we say, our real expert, is going to come in and tell her story with us here she is. Hi La Toya. So tell me a little bit about growing up in your family what it was like with relationship with your dad and your mom and your experience there.

La Toya: So growing up my parents were never married. I am the result of a courtship between an 18 and 19y old couple. And I am the result of that relationship. So my parents were never married, but my father was always a very positive force in my life. I spent weekends with him, we would take family trips, he was remarried before to another woman years ago when I was a little girl, and I would visit them. My family, we had a great time. He taught me so many valuable lessons about life, about being responsible. And my father was a news cameraman he worked for WXYZ Channel 7 Local News, here in the city of Detroit. So there were just so many wonderful valuable lessons that he gave me over the years. And I was very proud to have a father like him.

Joni: I can see why. And was his relationship, it sounds like his relationship with your mom was a good one.

La Toya: Yes it was. Yes it was a very good relationship. They both understood the fact that they were very young and they weren't responsible, in terms of preventing a pregnancy, but when the pregnancy occurred they both stepped up and did the responsible thing and co-parented and made sure that I had the best education, the best life, and it was beautiful.

Jacque: La Toya do you have siblings?

La Toya: I do have two sisters and a brother with my family, yes.

Jacque: And are you all close.

La Toya: Yes we are, we are very close. My sister Tiffany and I we are the closest we grew up together and we had a beautiful relationship with our dad.

Jacque: You said that he taught you some very valuable lessons, and you had a wonderful experience with him growing up. What do you think stands out the most to you in terms of maybe, values, that he taught you?

La Toya: My father was very ambitious, and he didn't let his life circumstances hold him back, and he always gave his whole heart everywhere he went, he took his whole heart with him. So not only was he successful, but he had a big heart, a huge personality, and people were… he was like a magnet to people. He would make the smallest man feel 6 feet tall. So he had a unique ability of making everybody feel like somebody special.

Jacque: Was there ever a time that you remember where he seemed down, or struggled at all with depression?

La Toya: Yes, my father had a lot of struggles, even though he was very successful, he struggled behind closed doors with alcoholism, you know? He was a star in the public eye but behind closed doors he battled insecurities, he battled life circumstances. And his weapon of mass destruction was EJ, it's an alcoholic beverage. And it was something that he indulged in the pleasures of quite frequently, but he didn't allow that alcoholism to interfere with his work. He was kind of like, I don't know the correct term, but a person who can drink and have alcohol but still be very successful? Like a closet alcoholic, that's what he was. He lived a very productive life, but you would never know what was going on behind closed doors. So yeah, he suffered mentally in a lot of ways.

Joni: How aware were you, as a child growing up and seeing him, how aware were you of those things that were happening with him kind of behind closed doors?

La Toya: Well, when I was younger I didn't quite understand. There were times when he would make promises to pick me up and to take me somewhere, and he may not show up. Or he would show up and he would, you know, kind of just be in a different mood. So as I got older I started to realize that there was some alcohol abuse going on, there was something just not right. And then there were times as an adult, because I love to cook, so sometimes I would cook a meal, and drive it over to his place, and he would ask me if I could stop and get him a something to drink on the way there. So I knew it was going on and I knew that he had a lot of struggles. But I never thought that it would lead to him taking the life of someone precious and beautiful, and definitely not taking his own life.

Jacque: You know, in the recovery community, and I am in recovery since my loss as well for the last 10 years, we call that a “functional alcoholic”. And it is hard when there's some denial there around that, or you think “I can't be an alcoholic because I go to work every day, and I am a good person, and I've never been arrested, and I've never had a DUI” and on and on and on. But definitely, you can tell a difference. And it sounds like you noticed a difference in his behaviors. Was there ever a time that he would you say he blacked out, or did it change him to the point that he be became aggressive or angry?

La Toya: No, he was never angry or aggressive towards me or anyone in our family, that I did not witness at all. But I wasn't with him 24 hours a day, so I don't know, there is a possibility. I know that there may have been some domestic violence in the marriage before he passed away. So I didn't witness anything like that but I'm not saying that it wasn't possible yeah.

Joni: So what was, around the time, let's just say maybe in the six months leading up to your father's death, and what was going, you know, how often did you see him? What did you know about his life? Those kinds of things.

La Toya: Well my dad was very popular in high school. So about two years before he passed away he went to an alumni event, and he reconnected with this lady that had a big crush on him back in high school. My father was a basketball star, the lady was a cheerleader. And she saw him at this alumni event and they're like “Oh my god, I always was in love with you! I'd like to go out with you!” Long story short, the two of them got married, and they were in their 60s, you know, late 60s. They had both been married before, they were both divorced, they both had separate lives, and children. And nine months later is when the tragedy occurred. So they were only married for 9 months. And by all outward appearances they appeared to be happy. Just before the murder-suicide my father had changed his Facebook profile picture to a picture of his wife. So by all outward appearances they were happy, they were in love.

My dad and I we talked often. We were we stayed in communication with each other. So everyone was shocked. No one saw this coming at all.

Jacque: I know something that you talk about is the why, you know, you have a lot of questions. Do you want to talk about that?

La Toya: Yes, you know, with suicide, specifically a murder-suicide, hindsight is always 2020. So I sit here today, and I think back about all the funny jokes, because my dad used a lot of humor to mask his pain. So he would often crack jokes. I would call him after a long day and say “Hey Dad, how was your day today?” and he would go “Oh I had a long day. I'm just looking for the bridge.” and I would say “Looking for the bridge? What do you mean?” He would say “Well because I'm ready to jump!” And we would laugh it off like a joke. But now I realized that there was a level of truth to the joke, to the sarcasm. He really wanted to jump. So now that I look back, I do realize that there were several warning signs and things that he had said to let me know that something was off. I just didn't recognize the signs at the time.  

Joni: It is so easy, sometimes, looking back that things seem to have a different meaning than they did at the time.

La Toya: Yeah, definitely.

Jacque: I'm curious, were those times when he was sober, per se? Or when he was drinking? That he would say that?

La Toya: I would say both during sober times and both times when he was drinking yeah.

Joni: one thing that I was wondering is, it's always interesting to me to see kind of this these multigenerational relationships, and so I wondered what your dad would tell you about his parents, and his upbringing?

La Toya: Yes Joni, that's a very good point. My grandfather, which was my father's father, he was an alcoholic. He was very abusive to my grandmother. And because of this my dad never wanted to touch alcohol. Because my grandfather was a sanitation worker, so they would get up in the morning at 5:00 and they go out and they be on the trash truck. And by 6:00 in the morning everyone on the truck is drunk. So in the evenings, when my grandfather would come home, my dad, being a little boy, the youngest boy in the family, he witnessed his dad's behavior as an alcoholic. So he grew up and he kind of resented his father for that behavior. And he vowed to himself, my dad vowed to himself “I'm never going to drink alcohol. I'd never want to try. It destroyed my father. I don't want any part of it.”

However, at the age of 26 years old, my dad took his first drink. And from there, it turned his life around. And ultimately, alcohol was a factor the night of the murder-suicide.

Jacque: And you know that because of what was there?

La Toya: I know that because there were there is a report that my sister gave me, like I don't know if it was from the morgue, or what it was. But there is a report and there is alcohol in his system the night of the murder-suicide.

Joni: How did you find out what had happened?

La Toya: Well I woke up in the middle of the night and I looked at my phone I had several missed calls. It was exploding with text messages from people on my father's side of the family. So in that moment I knew that it was something bad.... I knew it was about him. I didn't know, maybe he had suffered a stroke, maybe a heart attack. But never would I have imagined that it would be a murder-suicide. So I returned the call to one of my relatives and she just, she just told me. She says, “Your dad killed Liz and then killed himself.” And she said, “It's on the news.” and that's how I found out I turned on the news and…

You know, there's a funny story here. My dad, for a lot of years he wasn't able to drive because of the alcoholism, and the conviction- drunk driving and things of that nature. But he got himself together and he got himself a nice car. It was a gray Kia Soul. I'll never forget. He was so excited when he got the car, he called me over to his apartment, “I want you to come over and see my car!” He was a big guy, and he loved to crack jokes, and I went to see his vehicle. And on my way, leaving, he yells out the front door, and he goes “Hey don't hit my ride!” And so we laughed about it, you know, because of course I'm not going to hit his car. It was parked in the driveway. And so, the night of the tragedy, as I turn on the news, the outside of the residence was shown on the news, and in the driveway was that gray Kia Soul. So, and even to this day, four years later, when I see a gray Kia Soul on the road I think about my dad.

Jacque: Thank you for telling us that story. Those are the things that I think are important for people to know maybe who haven't experienced something like this, because there are there are we call them “triggers” but there are things that we come across in our daily lives that remind us and yet we still put one foot in front of the other. I'm wondering at that moment, when you found out, a lot of people experience shock, they don't really, they're kind of stuck or paralyzed, sometimes we just drop to the ground and, you know, let out some kind of scream. What was that like for you? What were you feeling at that time? Do you remember?

La Toya: Well my first emotion was anger. I was angry because he killed his wife. Why would you take her? Why? You had just been married nine months. She was a beautiful person. She was in all four of your corners. She helped my dad. She moved my dad into her beautiful condominium, because at the time of their marriage my dad was living in a small apartment, she moved him into her art her beautiful condo. She was, I think, I believe, she was a hospice nurse, or something related to that it professionally, so just all the beautiful qualities that she possessed as a person. My first emotion was for her. I was angry that he did that to her. She didn't deserve it.

So I had a lot of emotions. My first emotion was anger. And some days I'm still angry with him for doing that to her. She was a mother, she was a grandmother, she had people who loved her. She loved to bake, she loved to cook, she was a beautiful gardener. Why her? The one person that loved you! And accepted you with all your flaws and your faults. Why would you do this to her?

So my first reaction was anger.

Jacque: You're right and so thank you for telling us that. And when I see you talk, you seem so loving towards him. And talk about how much he gave you that was positive. So I think it is important to talk about that balance and navigating those waves and those different feelings that come up. And how it can oftentimes be all of it, all at once. So how do you deal with that?

La Toya: Well it's very complex because I can stand in front of an audience of people. I'm a keynote speaker on the topic of Suicide Prevention. So I stand in front of people and I talk about this wonderful person he was. My dad, he had all these great accolades behind his name, he was successful, but there's another part of that. And so, I never want to disrespect his wife. I never want to leave her out of this. So it's very complicated. It's hard for me to stand before you and talk to the two of you right now and tell you all these beautiful things about someone who ultimately murdered a beautiful person that didn't do anything wrong to him. She didn't rob him. She wasn't raping him. Why did you do this to her? So it's very complex, my trauma is very complex. Because I am an empath. I have a lot of love in my heart for people. And I love his wife. Like, I don't, I can't even imagine what hurt children have gone through. And her grandchildren. So the night of the tragedy two families suffered tremendous losses because this was just one day in the life of Herman McKalpain Jr, my father, a 67-year-old man. This was just one day in his life. But I knew him for over 45 years. So it's hard. It's just, the only way I can describe it is it's very complicated. And it's hard.

Jacque: You talked a little bit about how the two sides of the families were just kind of rocked. Did it split the families?

La Toya: Yes. I'm very limited in what I can say about my dad's wife. Because I, number one don't have permission from her family to divulge any more than what's already been made public. But she was a beautiful person. She loved my dad. She was in all four of his corners. She was a beautiful wife. They had only been married for 9 months, so they had a nice size wedding with lots of guests and people. And to have this happen so shortly after the wedding, it rock the whole the whole community, the family, the friends, the guests who were at the wedding. It was just a horrible time.

Jacque: Yeah and the services, and the things that happened after, what were they put on pause because of the, you know, the murder-suicide the crime itself? And was everything, did everything have to be done separate? Like their her family, his family?

La Toya: Well nothing was put on hold. Both ceremonies were separate. We did not attend her ceremony, and her family did not attend my dad's. And, unfortunately, my dad's funeral was 3 days before the covid-19 lockdown, so his funeral was on a Sunday, and I believe that Wednesday is when the nation went into lockdown.

Joni: I know that you mentioned you had siblings. How do you feel like your siblings have dealt with your dad's death in comparison to you? And the thoughts and feelings that you have?

La Toya: Yeah we're all devastated by it. We're all handling it differently. I think I'm the most vocal and the most public with my grief journey. But we are all tremendously broken by his loss. We really are.

Jacque: Do you have anyone in your family or anyone out there that criticizes you for being public?

La Toya: Not in my family but I have had people, through social media, that will send an email. And they'll say things like, you know, “Your dad is not going to go to heaven, he killed someone and then he murdered himself.” So I've had maybe two or three people reach out with adverse reactions to my mission. But I don't let those people stop me. Yeah, but my family they've been supportive in what I'm doing.

Jacque: What you're doing is so very important. I have a lot of respect for you around that it, because it is not easy to get up on stage or even come here and talk about all of the real things.

La Toya: Yes, you know, I have a podcast that I created in honor of my dad and I interview people all around the world, different walks of life. I'm almost on my 150th episode and so, you know, being here with the two of you today, it feels totally different than the way it feels when I'm doing my own podcast. Like I mentioned to you earlier that I was feeling really stressed and, you know, worried about this interview, because I want to keep it together, I don't want to break down, I don't want to cry. And we were having a few technical difficulties, and I was over, I was shaking like a leaf on a tree. So the anxiety level, the nervousness, is it's a different feel when you're on this side of the microphone, I'll say.

Jacque: Yeah and I thank you for saying that because again it just brings the real, you know, the real vulnerable piece of this to this conversation. And I think it also probably gives you, and all of us, compassion for those of us that we have come talk to us about their story. We're in their shoes for a few minutes.

La Toya: Yeah and, people look at me and they think I'm such a veteran at this, and I've done all these talks, and I go and I've done the podcast, and I've been on the front page of the newspaper, and I've done a lot in honor of my dad. But that pain is still there. And that nervousness still comes up. And the fear, and the all the emotions that any other person would feel. Just because I'm doing this on a consistent, regular basis, it doesn't take away the human aspect of what I go through.

Joni: Help us understand a little bit, maybe talk about what that journey has been like. So you talked about your initial reaction was anger, you know, that was the first response that you had. now it's been four years. What has that journey been like for you over the past four years?

La Toya: Well the past four years have been very lifechanging, I'll say. So at first I was very angry with him for a few days, and then my anger went into shock, it was like I couldn't believe it. I wanted answers. I went on a quest to find out more about suicide and mental health. I've learned a lot, I've educated myself and in doing my podcast I've had psychologists come on, people who have lost other people to suicide. I've joined organizations, I've joined boards. I have really gone ten toes in to learn more about suicide, its causes, its effects, how this happened, why it happened. And in this journey I have discovered a lot about my dad that I didn't really see at the time. I realize now that his pain was much deeper than I could ever imagine. When we would make plans to do things and he wouldn't follow through or he would renege on a promise, I understand him better, now that he's gone, than I did during that time. Because there were times when I would be angry with him like, “We were supposed to go somewhere, you didn't show up?” Or “Why didn't you answer the call? I was coming over.” So now I have more compassion for my dad, which I wish I had this compassion for him when he was alive. Because now it's a little too late. He's not here. But I understand him better now. I understand his pain better now. I understand why he felt the way he felt. I understand where the mental health problems came from.

Jacque: Through this advocacy work that you're doing, what do you feel like you’re really your goals are? Or your mission is through this at this point?

La Toya: Well, my ultimate mission is to save lives. And to make sure that no one else ever feels the pain that I felt of losing my dad. But my main goal in all of this, is to let people know that you could have a person in your life who can have all the success in the world, they could have a nice home, a nice car, beautiful wife, they could be intelligent, they could have a big heart, they could look just like someone, you know, and be struggling on the inside. And they could possibly take their own life. That's the one thing I want people to know. When you look at the picture of my dad, he's got on his favorite necklace, his white shirt, he's got a nice haircut, he's very intelligent, he's got lots of friends. My dad, when you would go to his apartment it was like a museum. He was a cameraman for Channel 7 News, what a great honor as a black man coming from the city of Detroit, impoverished neighborhood, to make it to the top of the success ladder. To be a college basketball star. When my dad was driving around town he wasn't driving in a regular car, he was driving a channel 7 vehicle clearly marked. So if this man could have all of these great things going for himself on the outside and turn around and kill his wife, and then take his own life, if that could do that, it could happen to someone, you know, maybe your friend, your next-door neighbor, maybe your uncle, maybe your cousin, anyone. So that's the one thing I want people to know: that it could happen to anyone.

Joni: So with all the information, and the training, and education, and learning, and just processing what you've gone through over the past four years, what would you see differently in your dad? And what would you do differently if you could go back?

La Toya: If I could go back, my dad used a lot of humor to mask his pain. And I realized that humor came from a very dark place. Most people who struggle with mental health illnesses and depression are very comical, because they're masking the pain that they have inside. So if I could return, you know, reverse time, I would dig deep more into why my dad was so humorous. Where did all, why are you being so comical? Where is this coming from? I would ask more questions. I would be more patient with him. I took so much person, so many things personal, when he would stand me up, or when he didn't call me back, or when he would break plans. I personalized all of that, but really I realize it wasn't me. He was struggling. He was struggling with his own identity, his own crisis, his own self feelings of unworthiness, low self-esteem. I didn't see that at the time and now that I recognize it, I would have tapped more into it with him, been more present for him. I wanted him present for me and for his granddaughter, my daughter, I wanted him to be there for, but I feel like I would be there for him more. And take him by the hand and have more compassion for him. Saying that you're looking for the bridge after a long day, that's a joke I never should have laughed at. Never.

Jacque: Do you feel guilt about that? Are you hard on yourself about that? Do you forgive yourself ?

La Toya: Yes. I have a lot of guilt. I'm not going to lie, I have, I'm better, but I still have days when I feel so guilty, you know, I feel bad. Because there were times when we would make plans to go somewhere and he wouldn't show up, and I would be mad at him. And I wouldn't answer the call if he would call me back, like two or three days later. Because I knew it was going to be the “Oh La Toya, I'm sorry. Something came up.” I didn't want to hear that so I wouldn't answer the phone. And I feel bad about that. I really do. I feel guilty because I was his oldest. I should have been able to see this and stop him and help him. I wish I could have been there the night that this happened. Maybe things would have been different. I wish that he would have opened up to me about what was really going on instead of giving subtle jokes and throwing little hints. I just, I will live with the guilt probably for the rest of my life. But I know how to manage the guilt, you know? I have an outlet. The guilt is normal. I'm going to have it, but I know how to manage my guilt. And it comes up.

Joni: You know, one thing I just have to say is, you know, when I'm hearing you talk about all this stuff La Toya it's, you know, I've mentioned before, I'm a mom and I have four kids, and I'm thinking, you know, your dad clearly was in so much pain, as you're talking about. That you were his child. And to me, it's like, when a parent lets a child down, no matter what the reason,. it's it's normal to be upset with your parent. Because your dad, no matter what he's feeling and what he's going through, he is responsible right for the for the choices he makes. And so when you are talking, I heard so much pain and so much guilt that you were feeling. And yet again, as a mom I'm thinking I would expect my child to be angry with me and disappointed and hurt if I didn't show up for something. Because that's what moms and dads are supposed to do. Keep their commitments right and that's such a hard one to me because of that I think you're carrying around such a burden with that. And it's like you, you're, no matter what age you are, you are your dad's child he is your father.

La Toya: Yes, yes. Yeah it it's a lot. It's a lot to manage, the guilt. Like I said, with the guilt, the anger… I'm not really angry with him anymore. I just feel so, I don't want to say, “I'm sorry” or “I feel sorry for him.” But I understand his pain and I wish that I had been more compassionate towards him. I always loved on him, and brought him food, and hugged on him. And we had a love for music, we sing to each other. We had a great relationship. But I wish that it had been deeper. But I understand, through my therapy too, that it's really you can't be close to someone who has a drinking problem and alcoholic. It's really hard to get close to people like that, because they, themselves, have a shell, and a wall up to cover what, you know, what they're doing. So it was really complicated.

Joni: I don't know Jacque if you could speak to this, because you're talking about recovery, and in hearing and being around people who are in recovery; but I remember many, many years ago I met just an unbelievable man who never gave up on anybody. He was in the recovery community. He had gone through rehab 23 times before getting sober. And I remember, I'll never forget, he said one time that “When you love somebody who has a substance abuse problem the best you can be is a mistress because they already have a wife, and the wife is that bottle or that drug or whatever it is.” And so I think that's so true that that relationship is so strong with that substance. That I think it is there is a level of intimacy that's probably impossible.

Jacque: Yeah, I hear that a lot from people. That that was their best friend, their drug of choice was. Or is their best friend. And to give that up, as you can imagine, would be painful. And a lot of people in recovery talk about their grief process that they go through, when they do give it up they have to say “goodbye.” And actually I was wondering earlier, I did write down, was he ever sober? Like, did he ever go into any kind of program or anything like that? Or did he just not acknowledge?

La Toya: Oh yeah he had a lot of support around him. He was, I think he was like the chairperson of his AA group, you know? He was a… my dad loved public speaking. So at every event in in life, if there was a microphone, he's going to go up and talk. So he was like the chairperson of his AA group. He was a wonderful guy. Everybody loved him. He, of course, he had his… he had definitely treatments and Alcoholics Anonymous groups, and all of those whatever courses that they take you through when you're caught drunk driving. Oh he's had all of that. But he wasn't, I don't think he could really manage all that he had been through. He needed severe help, he did.

Jacque: Yeah, at the end of the day, this is just what's going through my mind so I'm just going to say it, I know we're talking about prevention, and are there red flags, and we're hoping to make a difference. But what I'm feeling right now is, sometimes all we can do is what we can do. And could we have done more? Always, probably yes. Sometimes though, people are going to do what they're going to do no matter what. And he did have coping strategies. He knew where to go to get help. He knew how to ask for it, anyway. He knew how to seek it out, it sounds like. So at the end of the day, his behavior and his choices are on him. And I hate to say it like that, you know? They're on the… my ex and the people who choose, they make choices in that moment. Now sometimes they're, you know, maybe they're not thinking right. There's this distortion of thinking that we talked about earlier, before you came on La Toya. But I think we have to be careful not to put the blame on ourselves, like Joni said.

La Toya: Yes definitely. You're right.

Joni: I think, you know, I agree with you. Because, you know, all of us are so invested in prevention. And that's something that's so important, I think, to have people be aware of the signs that somebody's depressed. The signs of suicide risk. And yet, the if somebody is absolutely committed to doing it, or for whatever reason, impulsively does it. I don't think there's anything anybody can do to ultimately stop that person. Now having said, that I think to me a takeaway is, you know, if we have somebody that we care about and we're seeing changes in behavior, or we're seeing signs of depression, or whatever I think the other part of that is asking the questions. Is talking about what our concerns are. Talking about what we're observing, you know, I've noticed that you're doing this, I notice that you're not doing this, I'm worried about you. Are you thinking about suicide? Are you thinking about harming yourself? And we already talked about just as mental health professionals how important it is to ask a lot of different questions along those lines. And so, it's almost like being aware of what the signs are, and yet never holding ourselves responsible for preventing somebody's decisions. Because at the end of the day we are responsible. And that's one of the hard things, I think, for all of us to think about is that, you know, we all know people who've had horrendous childhoods. I mean, I see it working in prisons all the time. Just horrendous, I can't even put my head around it. And yet, that person made a decision as an adult that they're responsible for. And life is not fair. It doesn't start out fair for everybody. We don't all have the same upbringing. And that's just such a challenge, I think, to make sense of all that.

La Toya: Yes it is, it's very complex

Jacque: As you were talking I was thinking about the last two episodes that we did, Joni, where we talked about secrets that are kept. Or maybe even not secrets, family secrets. But things that we just don't share with the outside world. Maybe about what's going on with our family members or people that are close to us. And La Toya, I'm wondering were there times that you felt like you wanted to talk to someone about what you were feeling or going through with your dad? Or did you just, were you may be in some denial? What where are you on that spectrum?

La Toya: Well, no. I never wanted to speak to anyone about it because he handled it so well. So it wasn't a situation. Yeah like he handled his alcoholism very well. And he would tell, you know, “I'm going home and get me some Easy Jesus.” Which is what you call, in in the city of Detroit, you know, we that's what they call “Easy Jesus” that's the street name for his drink. So he would tell, you know, he “I'm going home to get me some Easy Jesus.” Everything was a joke. He was a very funny guy. He keep you in stitches. So I didn't really have a reason to want to consult with someone about my dad's drinking, because by all outward appearances he had it together yeah, you know?

Jacque: It's interesting that you say “Easy Jesus” because that's what it becomes, you know? The alcohol becomes the higher power, and a way out. Just like maybe faith is.

La Toya: And Easy Jesus, EJ, is like a poor man's drink. Because it's only like $6 a pint or something. So it's very cheap. I think it's a form of Brandy. I don't drink alcohol at all because of my dad and what happened. I am not an alcohol drinker I actually frown upon it. I don't like to see people drinking. But it's a way of life and people are going to drink so I have to deal with that on my own. But yes he loved EJ, his Easy Jesus, that was his weapon of mass destruction. and I never had to consult with anyone because he handled it pretty well.

Joni: So knowing that, I'm wondering… maybe you haven't…. how you've made sense of the actual night that this happened?

La Toya: Well, the night that this happened, in my mind, this scenario has played out probably a million times in my mind, to be honest. I know that alcohol was a factor. And I know that he was probably angry, for whatever reason. And she was the target. And then he took his own life, which was really… he was really the target. He was, I believe that he was tired of living. He was struggling. And for whatever reason he was angry. And his anger mixed with alcohol was a recipe for disaster.

Joni: You had mentioned domestic violence. I don't know to what extent that was going on. And I just bring that up La Toya because I know that, the research certainly says, that that's a risk factor in, not only murder-suicide, but obviously intimate partner homicide, as well. And I was aware… is that something that you were aware of then? Or after the fact? Or how did you come to know about that?

La Toya: Well, after the fact there were reports from people in his wife's family that he was, that there was domestic violence in the marriage. That's what we discovered after. That's what I discovered after my dad passed away.

Joni: This was new information for you?

La Toya: It was new information for me. Because my dad, just to go back a little bit, my father he was morbidly obese. And he had just had the gastric bypass surgery. So he had lost a tremendous amount of weight, he was looking good. He had problems with his knees, so he walked with a limp. So I couldn't even imagine him being angry, or wanting to fight someone. Because he wasn't in the best of health physically, you know? He walked with a limp. So when this happened I was thinking “How could you… why are you violent? When you're not you yourself, are not in the best of physical health.” So I'm not sure.

Jacque: Yeah, this brings up something for me that has my tentacles go up. Because my ex actually had gastric bypass as well. And this isn't the first time that I've heard people talk about addiction and change in behaviors. I don't think that we fully understand how that surgery affects people mentally. And what happens with addiction is, you know, he was drinking prior to this right? Prior to the gastric bypass? Yeah, but what happens the gastric bypass, at least one of the gastric bypasses, when they move things around in there the alcohol and whatever you consume, is dumped right into the bloodstream. It bypasses the small intestine, and it goes right to the large intestine, and it goes right into the body. And so, what happens with alcohol, in particular, is that you get high faster, but you lose it quicker. So it requires more, and more, and more, and more to sustain that. So it was a very different experience for him than it was before he had the gastric bypass, where that liquor would stay in his system for longer. So a lot of people don't realize that part of it, I mean so my ex had gastric bypass 8 years prior to the murder-suicide, or the the murder/attempted-suicide, I guess I should say. And she had addictive behaviors prior to that, with pills. But she went through a period with the alcohol as. And I recognized that, and I started to learn about it. So addiction becomes a real thing for people even just after the gastric bypass not necessarily… they maybe they didn't have any signs or symptoms before but definitely after.

La Toya: Yes, I could see that.

Joni: So were you aware that your dad was drinking again around this time?

La Toya: I don't think he ever stopped.

Jacque: Even when he was in AA?

La Toya: Yeah, I mean, he would go to the meetings, and he would do his best. But alcohol was always a factor, if I could be honest. He… it was always a factor in his life. But he was very functional, and he lived his life. It was a situation where you would have to know him very, very intimately to know that he struggled in that way with alcohol.

Jacque: Well you talked about it being a generational factor too. It is hereditary. And so he saw his father do it, and his father maybe saw his father do it, and so he said he wasn't going to do it but then one day he just decided “Okay everyone else is doing it.” Or “My life is too stressful.” and he used it as a coping strategy, and really that's all it takes to flip the switch in the brain. So I think that's an important thing for anyone listening to recognize, as well. That definitely, I think addiction, even in my scenario… so my ex there were pills all over the house. So she, I think, maybe browned, out blacked out, and went into it with the anger, already. Or the jealousy, or whatever. And so the act happened. But there was sort of a blackout, I think, where now she's saying she doesn't remember doing what she did. So drugs were involved. And I think it would be important to ask those questions as we continue to interview people, you know, “Were drugs or alcohol a part of this at all?”

La Toya: Definitely. Because the only way that we can really help people, if I'm going to be an advocate to help people, I have to be honest, you know? And it doesn't feel good to talk about these things and to reveal this type of lifestyle that my dad was drinking all the time and things like that. But is the truth of what happened. And if I'm going to be here in the public eye, I've got to be real and I have to tell the truth. I can't sit here and talk about the beautiful camera he held in his hand, and the college degrees, and all of that. I have to give… if I'm going to tell it, I have to tell it all. The real and the truth of everything.

Jacque: Do you think he would want that for you? And for him?

La Toya: Yes. Yeah, I think he would. I believe that too. Because my dad, in spite of his flaws, he had a big heart. He loved his family. He loved helping people. If he knew that you were sad, he would do everything in his power to lift you up. I mean, he was he just had a unique gift about him. He could make the smallest man feel six feet tall. So, and knowing that this, if his life could help save other people he would definitely want that. That's the man that he was.

Joni: And it sounds like, he would want that for you, as Jacque you were talking about, he would want you to not feel like you had to keep any secrets or maintain any image for him. Or, you know, or those kinds of things because we, you know, you were this up earlier Jacque. I just think that's it's such a, I don't want to say red flag, but I think it's certainly a question mark for, maybe, for any of our listeners or viewers is: when you find yourself, like you feel like you can't tell somebody something about your family, there's some secret in your family, I think that's certainly at least a nod to examine that WHY. You know, why couldn't I tell somebody about this? What secret I keeping? And what's the purpose for that? Because those can take on such a life of their own.

La Toya: Yeah, definitely. And then, here's another part of that too, if I'm not honest then I'm not honoring his wife. And I never want to disrespect her or dishonor her in any way. Because she was a beautiful person.

Joni: That's such a sad thing to me, and so unfortunate. Because you are such an advocate for her. You really are such an advocate for her, and a supporter. And yet, it's so heartbreaking to think of the fact that, you know, your family and her family is so alienated from each other because of this.

La Toya: Yes. And the fact that she was 67 years old at the time of the murder. To live on this Earth for 67 years, to have children, to be a productive citizen in society, and to work alongside patients that are very sick. To be such a decorated woman. And to pass away at the hands of my father, it's just horrible.

Jacque: La Toya is there anything that maybe we haven't touched on today? I know we've asked a lot of different questions. But is there anything we haven't touched on today that maybe you wanted to share?

La Toya: I would just like to share that if you have a loved one in your life, and you detect that they may be going through something, if they use a lot of humor to mask their pain, if they're pulling away from things that they would normally love… My father loved basketball. If you notice changes in your loved one, talk to them go to them with love don't go to them with your finger pointing wagging in their face to judge them. Talk to them. Lower your voice when you talk to them. Let them know you love them, you care about them. Get inside their mind. And just ask them “You haven't been yourself lately, I notice you've been sleeping more, I noticed that you've been shying away from things that you used to enjoy, are you thinking of killing yourself?” Just ask them. Don't be afraid to say the word. But just lower your voice when you're talking to them the worst thing you can do is judge them or criticize them in that moment.

Here's an example: “You're not thinking about killing yourself are you? You, come on you can't be that weak that man wasn't worth it. Are you serious? Come on.” Don't do that. Because if you do that you're pushing them further away from you. And what you want to do to someone who's feeling suicidal I always use my hands when I say this you want to draw them closer to you so that your bosom, so to speak, can be a safe haven for them to lay their head on your chest. To talk to you. To reveal what's going on. And if they reveal to you that they are contemplating suicide, your role is to guide them, by the hand, and take them to get the support and the help that they need. You're not necessarily the lifesaver or the magician, you're the magician assistant. You can't do anything without their willingness, so they have to be willing to get the help. and It's just like an oncologist, a doctor who specializes in cancer, he knows going into that profession, that he's going to lose some of his patients. And that's the same thing I've been taught that as an advocate for suicide prevention. I'm not going to be able to save every life. Because we all have a journey, and some of us, unfortunately, are going to die in that way. But I'm going to do my best to get you the help that you need so that you can stay around a little bit longer.

Jacque: Perfectly said. Perfectly said. Thank you.

Joni: I sure don't want to end our podcast today without mentioning the support group. And for people who've experienced a murder-suicide, I don't know if you want to speak to that La Toya or Jacque? I think that it's been such, I've been amazed at the work that this group is doing. And how supportive and how important it can be for people to find others who've had similar experiences nobody's had the same.

La Toya: Yes the network is called the Murder-Suicide Loss Network. And we are a group of people, we share the same pain, we have a support group where we meet in a private safe place amongst us. And we can talk about our problems. We can talk about our happiness. We can talk about any subject related to our lives, related to the murder-suicide. And there's a sense of peace that comes over me after I've met with this group. Because they understand my complexities, they understand the difficulties. Most people look at me and they're like “Oh that's the girl whose father…” I don't have to worry about hearing that comment in the Murder-Suicide loss Network. Because everyone there is just like me we all have the same pain. So, in essence, the group is helping to save my life. It's saving the lives of all the people there. Because it's enhancing our emotional well-being. Because if your emotional well-being is off, you're off. So I don't know if Jacque wants to elaborate more about the group, but yeah.

Jacque: Oh 100% agree. We just met actually; I have times when I feel like I just don't want to deal with that today. But inevitably when I go I always get something from it. And we talk about things that I maybe didn't even know that I needed to talk about, or get off my chest. And so you're right I always leave there feeling… and I might cry, you know? And it might be hard. But I always leave there feeling a little bit lighter. It's an amazing peer-led support group. And I just encourage anyone who is struggling finding support to give it a try.

Joni: Well I think that will wrap it up for today's podcast and thank you for joining us. If you we'd love to hear input, we'd love to hear any stories that you'd like to share. If you have any questions for us please contact us. And of course we'll have all the information about the murder-suicide loss group in the show notes as well as on our screen. See you next time.

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