Speak up. Speak out. Don't hold your secrets.

Murder suicide is the kind of tragedy that leaves all of us asking why. That's what we're figuring out by talking to the people who've lived through it unlike the often-sensational coverage of True Crime in the media the aim of our podcast is to give our viewers and our listeners an up close and personal accurate account of murder suicide the risk factors the personal experience and the aftermath on our podcast the real expert is a person who's lived through it, the Survivor.

In our first episode, premiering April 1, Joni Johnston, a forensic psychologist and private investigator, is our host. Jacquelyn Jamason, a mental health professional, is our guest.

Jacque lost her daughter to murder suicide 10 years ago and spent has spent her professional time since then helping survivors navigate the complex journey through grief.

Here is a condensed version of Jacque's quotes from Episode 1

It took me almost those full 10 years to find a support group online that dealt directly with and/or about murder suicide loss.

And couple of things struck me, one being this this sense of how "I don't fit in anywhere" that really kind of touched my heart. I heard so many stories from people that I spoke to who said you know “I don't fit in at the murder the violent murder group, I don't fit in at the suicide loss group” I feel because they're all in the same family.

The fact that I was in a relationship where there were very covert manipulations over a long period of time with somebody who was also a licensed clinician and there's a lot of stigma around that. There's stigma for me and shame and some embarrassment around the fact that I should have been aware I should have had some knowledge, I should have taken more steps, should have done this, or I should have done that... and maybe people don't think that but that's what I feel people might think so I've been a little hesitant to dig in and unpack some of that.

I wanted the white picket fence and I wanted the two and a half kids, and I wanted the good job, and I wanted to be seen as I wanted to be seen as well. I wanted to be seen like everyone else in the world who was a young adult, being successful in their life. And so, the things that were going on in the background I never talked about with anyone, and while there was not physical violence, there was this undercurrent of lies and manipulations that I dealt with her consistently over the years.

And I didn't know what to do with that, other than to continue to just moving forward and trying to keep it together; We just lived life; and not all of it was bad right? Not all of it was bad. There was some great moments, there were some wonderful memories, but definitely looking back, you know, lots of mental health the things we hear now - about narcissism and manipulation and love bombing and all of that? Definitely. Were there red flags?

In 2014, on Memorial Day after I had left her. Just a few months prior to that we separated. I was not there, she had a visitation with my kids. Ellie, Elliana, is the main victim of this crime.

She had visitation with the kids and I was at a beach function with a bunch of friends and I got a call from a neighbor that my daughter was dead and I didn't know what happened. So, they had to get me off this beach island and get me to the hospital where I found out that she had drowned my daughter to death, tried to overdose my son, and tried to kill herself.

So it's been 10 years now, so Eliana was two and a half at the time, and my son was 10 at the time, and he actually woke up from the incident and called the police and that's how we all found out.

And normally I start off talking about the day this is what happened, right, because it's almost like when people have these incidents it's BC, not BC, but what happened before and what happened after. So, my life before and my life after.

There was a suicide note on the computer that she wrote and there were pills everywhere. So, she had also tried to kill herself with prescription medications. So according to my son, he said that she was crushing up medicines and putting it in their coffee and trying to get them to drink it. So, she made sure that he drank everything that she asked him to drink, and then she said “I'm taking her into the bathroom to take a bath.” That's the last thing he remembers before he woke up, sometime in between there, what they're saying is, that's when she wrote the note.

It was clear enough to understand what it said which was, basically, “You did this to yourself, now you can go be with all your little friends.” Basically, you know, deal with it. You now you get to deal with this because you hurt me. So now I'm going to hurt you.

So it was a crime of passion, a crime of jealousy, a crime of, it was later to found to be premeditated. She had looked up things online about, you know, Xanax and different things that they found. Medications. She visited a few doctors, got extra medications before she came.

So anyway, when my son woke up he knew to look in the bathroom because he couldn't find, he couldn't wake her up, right? He couldn't wake my ex up. He remembered Ellie was going to be taken in the bath. He couldn't find her so he tried the door, it was locked, he unlocked it. And then he pulled her out. And then he called, went and found his phone, and called 911. Yeah, he really was a hero.

She, so, when she finally woke up two days later they were able to question her on the way to the jail. And she denies remembering anything. And then, later, her defense was going to be multiple personalities or dissociative identity disorder because of trauma. But when you live with somebody for 20 years, and I lived with her for that long, the only thing I ever saw was addiction and blackout scenarios. Not, I don't know, “who I am as a person?” Definitely not multiple personality.

You know, a lot of us who suffer from trauma have some level of dissociation I think, when we're triggered. And it's a coping strategy we used, and that's what we call daydreaming, or checking out, but we know our actions we know our behavior unless we are taking a substance that stops us from remembering. So I believe that that's maybe what happened is that she blacked out.

It wasn't until several years ago really that I found out, through her mom, that a few weeks before the tragedy took place she had sort of a meltdown. And she was with her family and she was crying and all upset. And said she was having thoughts of hurting herself and the children. Nobody ever told me.

Now, that being said, they were losing a daughter, or a niece, or a sister, right? To this crime. And they believed that it was really due to her mental health issues and that she would have never done anything unless there were these mental health issues. So there's still some denial there round the sociopathy part of things that I clearly see and know because of the work that I do.

When I first got that phone call, the friends that were there with me, tell me that I dropped to my knees. I, you know, was the guttural scream that you see on TV. I vomited. And they had to, basically, walk me, carry me, to a kayak to be transported down the river to get to a police boat to be taken to the car.

And I vaguely remember, you know, the that scenario. We drove to the hospital and then from there it was it gets fuzzy. But it's like you see on TV, where they bring you in and they walk you to the back room and they sit you down they tell you what happened. And then they interview you for hours - about your relationship, your history, your kids, how you parent. Did I know? Just hours.

And so then, when that was done, I was able to see my son. And then see my daughter. And say goodbye to her. And then they brought my son in and we sat next to my daughter together. And my mom was there, and our pastor was there. And I would say that memory is seared into my mind forever. More than you know. More than anything probably, just as much so as giving birth to her, you know? Giving birth to her and saying goodbye to her are kind of right next to each other.

What I didn't know was that that my ex was right next door. There were police all over the hospital and, you know, later I found out that she was right next door. Anyway, so after that, later that day, I was actually taken to a hospital because I was in so much shock that I was non-verbal and I just really out of it.

The national news and all of that. It was on Nancy Grace. It was on all over the front page of our newspaper. It was everywhere. And so, like, what I've heard from other people like the media really is the way that they were finding out information. So, those first few days really, we were in an undisclosed location at a hotel. And I don't remember a whole lot really, about the first weeks, months.

About four months in, I really, I was so depressed. I tried to go back to work and I just couldn't manage I couldn't handle it. I'm a therapist, so I was trying to see people and I was suicidal. I started drinking, I was taking Xanax that was prescribed to me by the doctors to get through a death of a child. And I wasn't taking, I wasn't able to take care of myself. I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping, I was a mess.

So I happened to know enough about treatment, because I worked in the treatment industry on and off, that I reached out to some friends and they got me into a treatment center. So I was there for 45 days and it saved my life. After that, I came out and I just stayed in therapy. I took a year off of work and just really recovered and took time that I needed to heal. But it wasn't until, I would say, year two or three that things started to sort of feel okay again.

I tell people sometimes I wasn't able to even plan for my next day. I wouldn't look at, I wouldn't look at a calendar and plan ahead. I just I couldn't bring myself, I didn't believe that tomorrow would exist in the same way that today would exist. So it took me a long time just planning the next day, and then planning the next month, and then planning the next year.

It wasn't until 2017 that I started cycling and I got involved in triathlons that really pushed me to set a goal for six months or a year out. That I started to plan way in advance again. And that's actually one of the major coping strategies for me, was getting involved in Triathlon at 45 years old. And I still do that, at 52. And it definitely helps, the physical exercise, pushing myself. Some people say, you know, “How do you do that?”

You know what, for me there's no pain that compares to what I went through losing my child, and losing my family, and losing the light in my son's eyes. And just my whole world crashing out on top of me. So that physical pain that I have to endure for however many hours kind of feels good and, I don't want to mean that in a weird sadistic way, but yeah that's how I cope mostly today.

And I've come to accept that what happened to me, not only in my childhood, but in my life and in with this tragedy - it has changed me, fundamentally changed me.

And my physiology and my brain, and I'm unable to, my body and my brain, is unable to generate the dopamine and the serotonin that it needs to function. And to do these things that I'm doing right now. So that's a that's a battle, you know, I had to and I still have to every day I take my medication. I have to tell myself: If I was a diabetic, if I had cancer, if I had some other ailment: high cholesterol, high blood pressure, whatever it is, and I had to take a medication every day to keep those levels where they're supposed to be, I wouldn't question it.

“I only survived with the three s's: a psychologist which starts with a p, a sponsor which is in recovery, and serotonin.” So, you know, I joke about it. But definitely I have to have all of those pieces of the pie to keep it together.

I think I just want people who are out there, not just the people who have stories to tell because they've been through it, but the general public people that want to help people, that are concerned about, you know… a lot of people well, when stuff, when bad things happen right, we're like “how can we help? I want to help.” And so, my hope is that through the stories that are told we will provide some way, or some venue, to educate people. To make people aware. To help people understand, maybe also, about grief and recovery when it comes to such a significant loss. Because I still hear things like "it's been 10 years, you know, it's been 20 years, it's been 3 years, it's, you know, can we get over this already? Can we… you're still crying about that?"

You know, now I don't really have anyone in my life, I'm so blessed to have people in my life that are still hanging in there with me. I had a friend yesterday give me a little butterfly pin that said “Let go and let God” and, you know, butterflies were a thing for me in remembering my daughter. So I'm blessed in that way. But I just want people to know that we still need, you know, I need that support ongoing. I need for people to know that I need that compassion.

I need for people to understand that coercive control is a thing. That the signs, and the red flags, and the triggers can be so subtle. And so much over a long period of time that you question “Am I making this up?”

There's so many nuances to why people commit a murder suicide.

How can people help? What should they do?

Just spread the word. This happens and this is not just the random True Crime show that you see, that is dramatized or, whatever, sensationalized.

But this happens so often if you just Google “murder suicide” it's like, you know, even in your local area, even in small towns, it happens so much more frequently. Just, we know about gun violence. We know about school shootings. We talk about it.

And then to be helpful on a more individual level, I think that really is an individual thing. If you have a family member, or a friend, or somebody that you're concerned about… just ask “hey, you know, is there anything I can do to help? What do you need? Do you want me to ask you questions? Do you not want to talk about it?”Because it's different for different people. I often feel like, sometimes, people want to talk about it but they don't want to upset me so I'm often the one to bring it up, especially with friends that were in this scenario, with me.

I've since kind of reconnected with some of them and I've actually been the one to say “Hey, it's been 10 years, we haven't talked about it. Do you have any questions? Is there anything you want to say? How do you feel?” and so, to not be afraid, I guess, to bring up their name, to celebrate them, to be curious, to ask questions.

I would say “Speak up. Speak out. Don't hold your secrets.’ If you are going through a hard time in a relationship, or with another person, or you're concerned, definitely share that with someone that you can trust.