Joni: Welcome to the Final Act. I'm Dr Joanie Johnson I'm a forensic psychologist and I'm here with my wonderful co-host Jacque, who is also a middle health therapist for the past 25 years and also a personal survivor of murder suicide. So good to see you again Jacque.

 

Jacque: You are too. And thank you so much for being the one to head this up and take initiative on it. I'm extremely grateful and I think we're all blessed to have you as our fearless leader in all of this. So thank you.

 

Joni: Well I tell you, we were talking a little bit behind the scenes, and I was just saying that these stories are so powerful to me, that I didn't realize how drained I felt after our last podcast. Because we can just feel the emotion and just what that experience was like. And I was wondering I mean I can't imagine what it's like for you.

 

Jacque: It was a little bit heavy, yeah I guess I wouldn't be being honest. I really felt it wasn't so much heavy for me as it as it was, I just felt so much compassion and empathy for our expert La Toya. And the feelings that she was having around it. You know, we might present on the outside like, I say we, those of us maybe who have lived experience, we might present on the outside like we've got it all together we're advocates, we're speakers, we're doing podcasts, we're writing books. But when we come in and we tell our story it's much different. We are on the other side of the camera, so to speak. And she said that. She made mention to that yesterday. And she was saying how hard it really is. And I think her vulnerability really shined through. And I think it's important for everyone to know that that's a balance that survivors live with every day.

 

Joni: That is such an important point, and she did mention that. And, you know, it's interesting because we've talked before about our personal goals for starting this podcast and what a wonderful group the Murder-Suicide Loss Network is. And I really am realizing, and I don't think I even knew it, that I it's been good for me to hear this as somebody who does a lot of speaking around True Crime and of involved in the media. And it's such a grounding thing for me to hear these stories and to really be able to have the honor of interacting with people who live through them. And I always want to be able to just to hang on to that and keep that experience with me when I'm talking or researching a case that I'm not familiar, personally involved with. Because it is, you know, it's one of the things about looking at the ethics of True Crime is it can be easy to forget that these are individuals who this impacted their life in a fundamental way, and that the inside experience is dramatically different from the courtroom, or from the lawyer perspectives, or anybody else.

 

Jacque: Yeah 100% and I'm also grateful that we have the opportunity to talk to people with varied experiences.

 

Joni: Yeah I to. And I'm really excited about our expert who's coming on today Dustin. I think he's going to be really so powerful in his story and he's become such an amazing advocate and speaker. And so let's get him on.

 

Jacque: Let's do it.

 

Joni: Welcome Dustin we're so happy to have you on our podcast today.

 

Dustin: Thanks for having me happy to be here.

 

Joni: So tell us a little bit about yourself.

 

Dustin: My name is Dustin Meyer I reside in central Minnesota. I grew up in a small town called St Peter Minnesota, a small population, a small high school. My sister and I both graduated from the same high school. She was a few years younger than me, followed me to the exact same college I went because she had to follow and copy everything that I do. And ironically we graduated at the same time. [She was a] very, very smart individual was one of the rare people that got through college in four years in and out and landed a really great job. So I'm currently married I have two young daughters. And I work for a company called iCore and we manufacture parts for the semiconductor industry. So, very tech-heavy.

 

Joni: And so, I know you're on the show today to talk about your sister and your family experience. So tell us a little bit what about what happened with Nikki.

 

Dustin: Nikki had a boyfriend for quite a few years. It's somebody that she had known in high school. Knew through college. Kind of right after she graduated from college they reconnected again. Dated for a couple years. He was a very successful engineer there was a little bit of age gap. He was quite a few years older than my sister but was very established with his career in engineering. Very high-paying job, liked to wine and dine her. Really treat her, you know, like the princess that she was. And like to spoil our family kind of the same way, you know, there's many times that he' reach out and say hey we're going to be in so and so, you know, I'd love to take you and your girlfriend, at the time, out for dinner and get everybody together. And, you know, he was involved with every holiday with my family. He was at my wedding, you know, so he grew to be very close to our family to, you know, conversation actually happening of maybe this is the one. Maybe this is who will be her future husband. Because it was very serious.

 

Then randomly one day I, you know, I get a text message from her letting me know that they had broken up. She had moved out of their town home that they had rented together. And she had found a house to rent the whole basement from. It was one of her close friends they had some young kids. And she, you know, was able to babysit their kids while staying there and it was just a really positive place for her to go. So she was living in the basement of her friend's house, about a month later she had let me know that she was still paying the rent on the old property. The lease was only taken down to her name and not both of their names. And Jesse wasn't paying rent. And she didn't want it to hurt her credit score, so she continued paying rent for the old property. Follow up about two months later he had randomly reached out to her and said “He I feel bad that you've been paying rent for this, you know, can you swing over after work I want to pay you back? I have a check waiting for you.”

 

So she went over to their old town home together to get this check from him of the money that he owed her for still living there, and that's when the murder happened.

 

Joni: And so give me a little bit of context in terms of, you know, how long they've been together when this happened.

 

Dustin: I want to say 3 years they were dating. So again getting to that point where, you know, is he going to pop the question? You know, things from our perspective and my parents’ perspective and all their friends, you know, it was just the perfect relationship, you know? I remember conversations joking on “Oh when's he going to pop the question?” and “Why haven't you popped the question yet? And things like that. So it was, to us on the outside, just a perfect story.

 

Joni: So it must have been quite a shock when you found out that they were breaking up.

 

Dustin: Yeah kind of shocked, you know, it's something that I didn't really question my sister on, you know, she's had boyfriends in the past and, you know, it was more are you okay? It's great you found a place to live your friend had this basement available and you can help watch their kids for him and stuff. My sister was, growing up, the neighborhood babysitter so she just loved kids. Couldn't wait to have kids of her own. She that's what she was just known for she's known as the neighborhood babysitter. We lived out in rural Minnesota out in the middle of nowhere, you know, its closest neighbors in most instances were, you know, a quarter mile away. And they're farmers. And over the years people had started building near our residents out there and when they moved in they all had young kids. So she got to be known as the neighborhood babysitter very quickly. So me thinking back at it I'm like wow that was just such a perfect situation for her because she loved being around kids and she loved watching kids. And it was a close friend so to me it was she was in a safe place.

 

Jacque: Dustin thank you for being here. I'm looking forward to getting to know you a little bit more through our conversations. I might have missed this so we're in 2025, early 2025, right now as we record this how long has it been since this happened in your family?

 

Dustin: The murder actually happened in 2011.

 

Jacque: 2011 okay. And how long were they together?

 

Dustin: About three years.

 

Jacque: Three years, okay. And there was really no indication of any kind of domestic violence or anything?

 

Dustin: Nothing. No. It wasn't until after the murder-suicide took place that everything came to fruition, and we learned about everything that was going on behind the scenes that we weren't aware of.

 

Jacque: I'm curious how did you find out about that what kind of came to fruition?

Dustin: Meeting with the investigators and the sheriff's department. After we met with them as a family. So myself my mom and dad and my girlfriend at the time who was now my wife. We were called in it was kind of here's what we found, you know, this took place a month after the murder-suicide occurred. So we had already had her funeral. We already buried her. A lot of questions on, you know, sitting for 30 days and wondering what happened that led to this? is something that was… we were very excited to meet with the investigator, let's put that way. It was an opportunity for us to get her belongings that were at the scene, her vehicle was at the scene. But they came back and told us, you know, there was numerous times that she had called the police to come deescalate the situation that took place there. And we had no idea that that type of stuff was going on. So it was arguments. We found out after again that he was bipolar. A week before the murder-suicide took place he was in his office and breaking to other co-workers that “I'm not taking my medication anymore. I feel great. I don't need this medication anymore.” So that kind of LED them to thinking of maybe why this all happened. He wasn't in in the right mindset at the time. But yeah their relationship, and their friendship, though had spanned probably over 12, 13 years that they've known each other.

 

Joni: Ad you said there was quite an age difference. What was the age difference?

 

Dustin: I can't remember Jesse's exact age, but I want to say there was about a 10-year gap there.

 

Joni: okay so he had known her then. If they had known each other for 12 or 13 years, he had known her since she was a young teenager.

 

Dustin: Yeah where the meeting actually took place was when she was in high school somehow her and her friends got into a group that really liked racing, you know, this is we're talking go-kart racing. You know, dirt track racing all that kind of stuff. And they would go to these raceways and, I never experienced it, when the raceways ended up hosting a benefit for her a few months after this all happened to raise money for the Nikki Foundation. It was my first time actually experiencing why she like going to these things. And because her guy friends that were racing these that they were able to get into the pit and get into all these things. And Jesse at the time was also another racer. So that's how they were they met was at these races. Again, just acquaintances and friends they knew each other but it wasn't until after she graduated college that they had reconnected.

 

Joni: so the time that she died how old was she?

 

Dustin: 26

 

Joni: Okay and how often were you in communication with her? let's just say in the six months leading up to her death. How often did you see her how? often did you see Jesse?

 

Dustin: She lived about an hour and 15 minutes away from me, here in Minnesota. So we didn't see each other that much. Phone calls, text messages, goofy things like that, you know? at the time my wife and I just got married. And we had just gotten back from her honeymoon. So it was just a lot of “How's everything going?” You know, my wife and I bought a house, you know, we had dogs, and she was very fascinated with our puppies at the time. And, you know, she would have a lot of questions around that type of stuff.

 

Otherwise our conversations were “What's going on at work?” She was a payroll administrator with her job. At the time I was an area manager for a staffing company. So we were somehow both landed jobs that had HR backgrounds. So, you know, we would have small conversations around “Hey I'm dealing with this, you know, have you ever run into this?” so we had some more conversation stuff like that but no signs at all of really anything bad. You know, details on the breakup… I jokingly asked her one day know “Why'd you guys even break up?” and she joked back “Oh that's not your business. You don't need to know that stuff.”

 

Jacque: I'm curious Dustin, you said you found things out after the fact, which is not very uncommon right, we tend to find things out after. Was there more than just what was maybe in in phones or police reports? did her did she talk to anyone about the, we're going to call it domestic violence, I guess. Did she talk to anyone that that?

 

Dustin: There was one situation where the police got a report from one of her co-workers at her job. That about a month prior she opened up and told the whole story to her, about “Oh I'm still paying rent on this old town home, he's still living there, I'm not.” and of course the coworker is like “You need to stop paying that, you know, it's not your responsibility. You're not even living there.” and then her concerns over having her name on the lease. But then she kind of opened up a little bit to him, he would get really verbal. Lots of shouting, a lot of yelling, had anger issues. Little things would set him off. But no conversations about any physical harm or anything like that. And even the police reports stated, majority of them were around it was all verbal, you know. “Can you please come and help deescalate the situation? He's upset over something. Can you please talk to him?”

 

But we never got into any depth on was it because he was off his medications at the time/ or did it have something to do with this bipolar disorder.

 

Jacque: Do you know if any of the threats that were made had any kind of statements around “If you leave me…” or “Don't ever leave me or I'll kill you.” or anything like that?

 

Dustin: No. We didn't get into fine details of that it was the police showing us kind of “Hey here's the four or five times that we received calls, and we had to come over and help.”

 

Joni: I was thinking the same thing Jacque just in terms of, you know, couples obviously argue right? if you're in a relationship you're going to have disagreements. For the police to be called in that seems to be unusual. I mean, your sister sounds like she was somewhat of a private person in terms of keeping her business to herself. And when you kind of ask about something she was like “Hey, you know, mind your own business” she wasn't somebody it sounds like who reached out a lot for help if she had problems. I'm curious your perspective on that.

 

Dustin: My perspective on it is you have a 25, 26-year-old woman who, a lot of her friends are getting married, they already have children, they have the white house with the white picket fence. Right everything is so perfect. And now you have the inclusion of you look at 2010, 2011. That was kind of like the really big like social media slam of “Hey we got this thing called Facebook.” I joke all the time I hear about domestic abuse cases, and you go to their Facebook page and you're like “Look at this happy family. Everything is so picture perfect. They got their four kids. They got their dog. Everything is so perfect.”

 

So I think that still today I talk a lot about the “social media disguise” right? They had everything perfect or you even hear about people getting divorced today and you're like “How? You guys are going on all these trips, and these fancy dinners, and you share your entire life on social media. And everything is so perfect.” So I think that probably had a lot to play with it. Is she wanted to be like her friends. And she wanted to be like her big brother, who's engaged and about to get married, and everything is perfect in our lives. And “I'm not going to say anything because why would I say anything to make myself not look happy?” Right? So I think that has a lot to do with it.

 

Jacque: So fascinating that you're saying that. Because I think, you know, of the three experts right Johnny that we've spoken to so far since we started this podcast, in one way or another, it seems that there is an image to uphold, or secrets to keep, about the family, or a family member, or a relationship. And the idea that that image needed to be upheld in order to be seen as everything's okay. And you're right social media lends itself to that. And I think there are a lot of other fallouts from that in the world right now especially with young people. But absolutely 100% agree with you on that. Even from my own from my own experience, you know, I mean yeah. I wanted… it wasn't really like a conscious decision; it was sort of an unconscious knowing or decision that I made to not air my dirty laundry.

 

Dustin: right and you still have some people that do. But I think the most recent case that really stands out is that YouTube Mom with her kids that got arrested because she was keeping them in dog kennels and keeping them all this stuff. But she's posting videos daily of their perfect life. And the kids are so happy. And things like that so not everything you see online is actually what is actually happening in real life. And I think that had a lot to do with it. Just because it was such a powerful impact at that time the introduction of Facebook, and people's profiles, and posting your job title on there. If you're married. And things like that it, you know, it basically categorizes you as the type of person that you are. And nobody wants to come out as a bad person.

 

I see a lot of cases nowadays though where people do speak up. “Hey Bob and I got a divorce, and I left him because he verbally abused me. And he was not a nice person to be around. And I got out and found a safe place.” And the positive feedback that comes with that nowadays is just phenomenal of “Good for you that's amazing! you could have been a victim.” you know, you just don't know. So yeah social media has definitely a large impact on what's happening in today's world.

 

Joni: I think you're right. I think we've gone through an evolution on social media. And I think, certainly, younger kids, teenagers now still I think feel that pressure to have a certain presence and a certain image on social media. But I think we are learning, you know, consumers of social media are much more aware that what's on there is a tip of the iceberg. And that we don't really know what's going on. And I think people are beginning to feel more permission internally, and maybe from social media, to share more authentic things. Or things that are really happening. And be less afraid of getting some kind of backlash or judgment or those kinds of things.

 

Jacque: Well there is Backlash yeah, you know, I've had people say to me “Why would you share that? It happened x amount of years ago, why do you keep talking about it?” Like people I don't know strangers, right? Why would you put this back out there? Just move on or let it go. Or whatever it is, right? And so you're all we are always going to have the naysayers, or the people, the haters, or whatever you want to call them. So I think that that's important too. I think that's why I think people are fearful of that and that maybe why they don't share the truth. But absolutely I think people are becoming more brave for sure yeah. Depending upon the platform.

 

Joni: I think that's a good point. Because it really has to come from within, to some extent. Because you're right, we can't, we're dependent upon what just the feedback that we get, to say it's okay or not to then we're always going to be vulnerable. Right. Whether even if it's positive. It's going to be we're dependent upon that. But kind of getting back to your story and with Nikki and I'm wondering about your parents in all this. Because they obviously were a part of Jesse's life, and Nikki's life, and their life together in a relationship. And I wonder did they have any ideas did is would Nikki confide in her mom or her dad about what was some of the things that were going on?

 

Dustin: No there wasn't anything. Again I don't know. Again that keeping the positive image of what's going on in her life I think was the most important thing that she wanted to portray to my parents. I'm guilty of it also, you know, and there's things that go on in my life that I wouldn't openly talk to my parents about but, hey if I got a promotion at work or things were going really great, I'd make sure that I let them know. But the negative, again you have the stigma that you want to impress your parents. And she was definitely one of those people. She, like I said, she was a smart one. She was, you know, if you want to think about brothers and sisters and competitiveness that we had I'm like “Okay yep you got amazing grades, and you got out of college of four years. And I went to college for seven years, I should be a doctor. But I changed my major three times and I'm definitely not a doctor.”

 

So I think there was a stigma of “I want to be just perfect. I want everything in my life to appear perfect.” Like I said, she landed an amazing job right outside of school. Has this amazing boyfriend. They get a gorgeous town home together. Bought a brand-new car. Everything is just so perfect. My parents had no idea. Right so they were kind of in the same shock when we met down met with the private investigator and the sheriff's department. And here's what's been going down and here's our police records and the calls that we've taken, you know, to the residence and things like that it was everyone was just shocked. Nobody had any idea.

 

Joni: so how did you find out specifically? and what were you told at the time?

 

Dustin: I was at work at the time. And my sister emergency contact at work was myself. And they had called and said she hadn't showed up for work. I'm like “Oh well okay that's not like her,” you know, we're talking, my sister would show up to work a half hour early every day with donuts and coffee for everybody. She was just that person first one in first one out. You know, that that was just her work ethic. And so I'm texting her I'm calling, her she's not answering. I reach out to my parents they haven't heard anything, they have no idea either.

 

It got, you know, four or five hours pass and she's still not answering. And I'm starting to get a little bit concerned. And I was just about to the point where I'm like “I'm going to leave work and drive down to her place, just to make sure she's okay.” I didn't have the contact for where she had moved to. Again on social media trying to track down people “Have you heard from my sister? Do, you know, where she's at?” All that kind of stuff. And at that time my dad had called me about, I was just packing up my office getting ready to head down there, and he called me and he said I need you to come home. The police are here. They found your sister and she has passed. And complete shock. I said, “What do you mean she's passed? what's happened? what's happened?” and he goes “Jesse killed her and then kill himself and I need you to come home right now.”

 

So my wife and I packed up all our stuff, and it was the longest two and half hour drive I've ever had in my entire life. And we got to my house and magically, somehow, there must have been 30 people in my parents’ house. All sitting with them. And my mom was back in the bathroom crying. And first off I was like “Where did all these people come from?” But it got escalated quickly to the news channels and word got out pretty quickly at what happened. Because it's something that again small-town St Peter in Minnesota this isn't something that happens, especially a 26-year-old girl that has everything going forward in her life. So yeah that's how I found out, was just I still to this day, it's like burned in my brain. I need you to come home they found your sister she has passed. It [was the] hardest phone call I've ever taken my entire life.

 

Jacque: Yeah so thank you so much for sharing that. I know those are hard, that those scenarios are hard to talk about. And I actually had my own sort of visceral response to that. So and I can almost sense you're, it's painful. It doesn't matter how many years it goes by or how many times you tell it it's always hard. So thank you for that.

 

Because you live in a small town and probably, does everyone know everyone? I'm wondering, you know, were sides taken what was the fallout? how did you all cope with that?

 

Dustin: We had a massive turn off for a funeral. Jesse didn't have a funeral at all. You know, he was quickly labeled on social media as a “monster.” what, you know, a lot of her friends attacked his page immediately. “You're such a monster. Why would you do this?”

 

I don't know what happened on the back end with if he was cremated or if there was actually a funeral or anything like that. But it was kept very silent. No obituary. No anything coming from his side. We had a massive turn off for my sister's funeral. It was simply amazing how many people came. When he killed her, we haven't really talked about the actual murder it itself, but he shot her point blank in the head, in the mouth. So it answered just right above her lip I believe. We still had an open casket. They did an amazing job with making her look great. And it was something that was really important to my parents, to make sure that they had open casket for all of her friends to see her one last time. It was a great thing, you know, but it it's something we look back, you know, today's 2025, this happened in 2011. My mom still has an extremely difficult time without having her daughter around. It's every holiday, every birthday, anniversary of her death. It's something that still affects us all, but to her it affects her so deep. My dad passed away unfortunately about a year and a half ago of cancer. You know, while he was getting ready to pass it I'm going to go see your sister. I'm going to go find Nikki. She's waiting for me, you know, so it was a really powerful thing.

 

So now me as only child it's just my mom and I left. There is a lot of stress behind. My mom lives two and a half hours away from me. And I know that she goes through a lot a lot of deep thoughts and issues still flashbacks and everything going on today. They got into a grief counseling group immediately after it happened. This is parents of children who have passed away. Made some great friends with that. It was a great program for them. And they still talk to him today. But they would meet once a week and share their stories and just allowed them to talk about it. So that was definitely a plus in her life. But it it's still today it's still very difficult, especially with my dad passing.

 

Jacque: yeah I guess I just would like to make a point here for those that may be watching. There are a couple groups for parents who've lost children one is Parents of Murdered Children and one is Compassionate Friends. So those are I think on websites with their names listed. So thank you for mentioning that.

 

Dustin: there's tons of local groups every town has local groups right, you know, at the church, at City Hall, or the community centers locally. You could easily find one off of a quick Google search. But I'd highly recommend anybody to take advantage of it. It's something that, I didn't go to therapy, I didn't do anything after. Looking back now I probably should have. It was something that me being the big brother and having to fight through this newly married. I put on the tough man face and just kind of buried it. I think the only way that I'm unbearing what I went through is doing what I'm doing with you guys, right now. And being able to talk about it and try to make a change. Or do what we're doing on a local level with Annamarie’s Alliance here in town in the women's shelter. I think it's just it's kind of my therapy right? so find help. There's groups to help.

 

Joni: We've talked about this before Jacque, just how important I think it is, when people have a traumatic experience, you know, to, you know, to find people who've had similar experiences. Or shared can understand as much as possible, as much as anybody else can. Nobody can understand I guess our personal journey completely. But I think when you have things like losing a child. I think it can be so healing in some ways to be with people who that's gone through.

 

I also want to talk about what you mentioned before, I'm the oldest in my family and you're the big brother, and that sometimes brings with us certain expectations or certain, you know, sense of responsibility for our younger siblings. Whether it's ever, you know, given to us or we just assume it. I just wonder what that was like for you as a big brother. And you talked about Nikki kind of following you around, and emulating you, and what was that like for you as a big brother?

 

Dustin: It was hard. It's an opportunity I think that, you know, you take my maturity level day prior to the murder, to my maturity level the day after the murder, and life changes quickly right? Calling out what you were saying before, you right away immediately think to yourself “Why me? Why is this happening to us? Why us?” We're not the only one this happens to. And like you said there there's groups you can talk to and you're going to find other people that have dealt with similar situations. But for me it was more around my mom. I get a lot of what I have from my father. My dad's just, you know, Navy veteran. Very a tough work ethic. Great man. Great father. And to see him crumble and cry, and finally let kind of what happened hit him, it made me step up. It was kind of the breaking point of where you start feeling less of a son, and more of a caregiver. And everyone kind of has that piece in their life. And Joni you could probably think of your parents being the oldest now, and looking at your parents and, you know, I'm not in the stage of life where you're thinking “nursing homes” or anything like that. But there is a point where there's a transition that happens. And I think that was kind of my transition is after my sister's passing of “I really need to step up. It's only, you know, they only have me left.” A lot of things change right you got to think holidays, and vacations, and things like that. And it's just me and I was very fortunate that I was able to, you know, get give them two granddaughters. Who is just the light of their life, you know. Again my dad going through cancer and only having days to live. You know, when asked, you know, why are you holding on? “Why are you doing what you're doing?” It was for my daughters. He wanted to be there for my daughters. So we were blessed to have our two daughters. And that was really what helped transform my mom and my dad and, you know, finally see him happy again, and see him smile again. To have that exposure and to have them in their lives. So yeah. That was really the turning point though of understanding that maturity level has to step up. And I went from more of a less of a son to more of a caregiver type role. I feel. Which I have no problem with. I love it.

 

Jacque: So now how do you say you do public speaking, and you have the foundation, or the nonprofit, or both?

 

Dustin: and yeah we start the Nikki Foundation early off. Basically year after her death. My mom kept saying “We got to find a way to keep her spirit alive. How do we keep her spirit alive?” she loves kids, again I keep touching on the kids’ piece of it, she was just amazing with kids. So I started thinking “Why don't we start a nonprofit that starts college scholarships for any kids that are victims of murder-suicide?” So we're talking, you know, father kills mother, kills himself, or vice versa whatever it may be. And we started thinking, you know, how often does this actually happen? you know, is this going to be powerful enough? and it just kept appearing in the news and appearing in the news. And it was just non-stop.

 

so for many years we basically chased down the survivors of murder-suicide, these children. And it was kind of my mom's thing to do, of hey she'll send me a text message “Hey I just saw the news there was one that happened in this town I'm going to dig into it and figure out where they're at.” and then she calls the local banks and sets up a checking account for this child that they can't touch until they're 18 years old and puts money into it. And it was just something that was very therapeutic for her. And on our website for the Nikki Foundation we have some of those stories on there. Unfortunately it got out of out of control. There's so many cases that we couldn't help everybody. And that was hard. Also the amount of work to put together the silent auctions and the event itself got to be a lot of work. I have my dad going door to door to businesses and asking for donations for silent auction items and things like that. And just so we were able to do it for quite a few years. And we were able to really raise a lot of money. And we beat all quarters that we were hoping to. And we flipped it to a college scholarship at the high school that my sister and I graduated from. So they have the Nicki Meyer scholarship. And it's for a boy and a girl who are going to college for criminal justice. So that's how we're applying all the funds today.

 

Joni: You've talked about so many different ways your life has changed since it's happened. And, you know, also your parents lives have changed. And I think that's it's such an important point because there's things that go on, in terms of not just the year after it happens, but these recurring events like you were saying holidays, or birthdays, and those kinds of things. And it seems that kind of ripple effect that kind of continues. And it also sounds like some positive things have come out of it. I was wondering about that, for you. Not in terms, of because it's happened. But in some ways it is because it happened. In terms of some of the domestic violence stuff that you do. So I'd love to hear a little about that Dustin.

 

Dustin: Well life changes. Right? You never, you know, I go back to I'm 15 years old, my sister is 12. Us joking “hey one day we're going to have kids and we're going to live in the same town and we're going to do this and we're…”, you know, you never think of the what if? what if something happens to one of us how is life going to be different? I think I would never have thought anything like this would ever happen. Nobody should ever think that anything that will happen. But I think about my daughters I'm like “You would have had the best aunt in the entire planet. We would have had a free babysitter for life because she's just so phenomenal with kids. You guys would just ate her up.”

 

And keeping her, you know, my daughters have pictures of her in in their room. My oldest daughter her middle name is Nicole. You know, it they have a lot of questions about their Aunt Nikki. And they want to know they're 12 and nine today. But there're they still ask questions. Did Nikki play sports? Did Nikki do this? Did Nikki like this food? What was Nikki's favorite color? and it's just such a weird thing to be living in. Because you never in a million years thought this is what life would be like at this age. Me being 43 today, my sister should be 40 and have a family of her own. And we all were fighting over whose house we go to on holidays. What are we getting our parents for Christmas? That was always our favorite thing to do. What are we getting them together? And it's just, it's different. But we had to make changes. We have traditions that no longer exist.

 

We created new traditions. Christmas hosting at their house changed. And we did things differently and, you know, they came to my place. After it originally occurred they came and lived with me for a little over a month. They were struggling being in the house. Just where my sister and I grew up. It was hard, just the memories and everything hit them. Everything reminded them of her. So they moved in with me for about a month. And got to the point where “Hey, I think we're ready to go home now, you know, you're driving me nuts, we're getting out of here.” And they went back to their house and started this new journey of what life would be like to not have their daughter in it anymore. And even now that my dad passed, I find myself we're doing the exact same thing. New traditions were changing up everything. So it's difficult, but like I said, ironically the biggest healer in this is my two daughters. So that that's really a big change. And the little things of my youngest is in basketball, and having my mom be able to say “hey I'm going to come to her basketball game tonigh.t I'm going to drive up and watch her basketball game. And get out of the house for a little bit” so I look at it now. I'm like if we didn't have these kids we'd be in big trouble. Because they had, you know, it's just a very therapeutic good thing for them.

 

Jacque: Gives her a sense of purpose, I'm sure.

 

Dustin: Absolutely for sure

 

Jacque: What would you… well this is a two-part question. This has probably changed how you raise your daughters and what you tell them about relationships, I would imagine, right? And how to advocate for themselves, and speak out, and things like that. And what to put up with, and not what to put up with. But maybe what would you tell other parents with kids about the same kind of things?

 

Dustin: I think there was a lot of lot of lessons learned from what occurred. Nikki's friends, to my friends, to yeah the way we raise our daughters. It's really different, right? They, both of my daughters understand what happened. In the most children story book fashion possible, you know, we told them the story of what had occurred. With none of the really grotesque details of the whole thing. But I think it's something that they think about, right? they understand. I might have been a little bit too enforceable of stranger danger of them, and then still am. You know, but now you're dealing with kids who have who have cell phones, and life is different. And I got to think about the online presence and, you know, making sure nobody reaches out to them that way, but it is a fear. I'm always going to have that fear it's a PTSD of what happened to Nikki. And make sure nothing happens to them, for sure.

 

Jacque: Because has this happened with a gun as the weapon, I'm wondering where do you stand on that?

 

Dustin: Oh I'm super mixed on it. So we haven't really got into the whole discussion of what went down. I didn't know that he owned guns, let alone, I believe there was six guns found at the scene. So he had guns hidden in couch cushions. Guns in the bedroom, kind of staggered all over the place. The way the murder happened, according to the forensic scientists, or the investigators, is it was an ambush. She had put her purse on the counter, walked in the living room, and that's where it occurred. They think he was coming down the steps into the living room. It was a two-story town home. And just put the gun right in her face and pulled the trigger.

 

So there was a there was a premeditative purpose to all this right? there was almost an hour in between the murder and the suicide. So did he think this through? did he, had this idea “I was going to kill her”? But then I don't think he thought about what happens after the fact. He had touched her face. There's handprints of blood everywhere. She died instantly, obviously, just because of the range and where to hit her. But he had gone up and down the stairs multiple times. They kind of follow the blood trail that he had on him. And then he took his own life about an hour later.

 

so my standpoint on guns… I’m an avid outdoorsman, hunter. I don't own any handguns. I don't see a need to have a handgun. I have a lot of friends that have handguns. I've always kind of had the mentality that “You're never going to shoot anyone if you don't have a gun”, you know, “You can't shoot someone if you don't have a gun.” so I my guns are for deer hunting and duck hunting purposes is only. They're shotguns right? we grew up, that's how Nicki and I grew up. My dad was a very avid outdoorsman, hunter, fisherman. You don't live in Minnesota if you don't shoot a deer, shoot a duck, or a goose, or something right? So the same with fishing. But that's really my standpoint. I can't get into any type of situation if I if I don't have the gun.

 

Jacque: It's a tough one

 

Dustin: This mass collection, right? and that's kind of the police said, you know, these six guns they're not cheap. Again the guy had money. But he had this avid gun collection. And he thought he would hide them all around the house so that when she came in he was able to grab them quickly.

 

Jacque: We could probably spend a whole other hour or two on mental health and gun ownership.

 

Dustin: Right? Yeah for sure. Yeah, especially with the bipolar piece of it too. And that's something that we didn't really fully understand. I didn't even know what bipolar really was, right? It's something that you don't really, you know, you hear autism get talked about a lot but bipolar is kind of its own different realm.

 

Jacque: Yeah, it has its own stigma yeah.

 

Dustin: There is yeah. And we knew there was something there. I just didn't know what it was. It never came out and it said, “Hey Jesse has bipolar disorder, and he has to take this medication, he has to do this, this, this, just to do whatever.” And we had no idea.

 

Joni: So you were saying that you knew there was something there. What do you mean by that Dustin?

Dustin: It was brought up that he takes medication for something and, you know, we'd have times where I'd be with him and, you know, he wouldn't say a word. And then you have times with him where he was just a chatter box. So with the bipolar disorder, you have these highs and lows. And that's where the medication comes into play. But I just never thought twice about it, you know, I look at my friends today and for all I know they could have bipolar disorder too because they act the exact same way. But it's just kind of like “Okay you're different in in this aspect, but I'm you're super nice. And to me you were treating my sister well, and she loved you and everything was amazing.” so I just treated him with that respect.

 

Joni: You know, we've talked about this before a little bit it's so tricky with the whole issue of mental illness. And particularly, I think, when we're talking about premeditated murder. Because it sounds from what you're telling me Dustin, I mean he tricked your sister, it sounds like into coming over. I mean, really by telling her he's gonna pay her this money back that he's, you know, thinks he owes her. And she comes over and he shoots her. And so that to me makes it even more complicated in terms of, you know, I mean certainly we know that untreated mental illness can cause all kinds of symptoms. But in terms of that kind of premeditation, it just I think becomes tricky to attribute that to mental illness. As much as somebody who's enraged about the fact that he's lost the person he wants to be with, or he thinks he should be with.

 

Dustin: yeah there's always the thoughts that, you know, maybe his mental state at the time was “Well if I can't have you, nobody can have you.” type thing. Again that's just speculation but, you know, just the storyline and how everything unfolded that's kind of how it appeared to us personally, anyways.

 

Jacque: Yeah Jonie we've talked about this, several times now the distortion of thinking. And the blended diagnosis of narcissism, sociopathy, and mental health. And how difficult it is sometimes to pinpoint exactly what was the major factor?

 

Joni: Exactly that's such a, you know, and maybe the puzzle that kind of all comes together exactly. Did you have a relationship with Jesse's family?

 

Dustin: No. Not at all. We received a letter from his mom a few months after everything. Her apologizing to my parents. And she again it it was a weird letter of “My son's not a monster. I'm not sure what happened here. I am so sorry that he took your daughter and sister away from you. But I lost a son. I'm the one that went,” and we didn't even realize this, but she is the one that volunteered to go clean up the town home after it all happened.

 

Jacque: I was going to ask about that

 

Dustin: So she wrote in-depth in a letter about cleaning up Nikki's blood. And cleaning up our baby's blood. And all this kind of stuff. It was it was very eerie, very, something was really weird about it. My parents never wrote her back. Never did anything back. But very strange. Right? And that's all that's the last that we had heard of anything. So, yeah. Definitely had had the creepy factor to it, with this letter. I'm not even sure what my parents did with that letter. My mom read it off to me and I said “This is crazy talk. This is just didn't feel normal.”

 

Jacque: It's interesting that you say that I think, you know, the families of the offenders, or the perpetrators, or the defendant, or whatever you want to call them, have their own side, you know? They have their own side of the story. And my ex's family it does too. And yeah it's almost a distorted… I often wonder if one of my children did something like this how would I feel? Would I protect them? Would I stand up for them? Would I… obviously we would be hurting, right? If it was one of our kids, we would feel I think compassion for the other the other family, and then, but also, the loss of our own child. And it's I think it's a tough place to be probably.

 

Dustin: It is. You think about the parent so that these mass shooters that are taking place. And it's just, what do you do? Did you, as a parent, now that I'm a parent, it's “What did I do wrong?” or “Where did I go wrong?” or “What did I not do a good enough job with for this to happen?” so I can understand that she’s probably, still today, having a very difficult time. But I don't know her personally, never seen her.

 

Joni: Another two-part question. One is what was most helpful to you in the first year or so after your sister died? And what advice would you give to somebody who is, you know, in the early stages of dealing with this?

 

Dustin: Yeah. I think my best advice, you know, if we think about the year after. Again about the part of going from feeling like I'm just their oldest son to this caregiver role. That's what definitely helped. It was a lot just to help my parents. And try to do everything. I felt like I had this responsibility to try to make everybody as happy as possible. But my wife was just, my wife was a great support system. Amazing support system. Same with my mother-in-law, she had dealt with losing a sibling in their 20s. So it really came down to “I'm not the only one.” The first people that reached out to me my public speaking is our local church that we go to. And it was BKE Ministries. And that's where the video originated from that I shared with you guys. And to be able to talk publicly about it or try to figure out a way to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Or try to help somebody that's in an abusive relationship escape that abusive relationship. I think that's just that that was kind of my therapy. And again also being told about Annamarie’s Alliance, which, I've been living in this area for 25 years now. And at the time I had no idea that this woman's shelter even existed. Or what the demand was for this woman's shelter. And I think that's just kind of where I said “All right. I think I found my where, I need to insert myself here and try to do whatever I can to make sure this doesn't happen again.”

 

And what was the second part of your question Joni?  Or did I answer that already, the second part?

 

Joni: Well you kind of did. It was, you know, what was most helpful to you and what advice would you give. And then the last thing I was just going on to ask you is: how are you different now than you were the year after? In other words: what is most helpful to you now? And I think you may have answered that as well, by talking about some of the advocacy you do around domestic violence.

 

Dustin: Just to continue putting it out there. I haven't touched base on this, but again my wife and I own this business, and it gives us the platform to really talk about domestic abuse. And try to help people. And to advertise on social media and get it out to the public. And even my wife having somebody sit in her chair and start crying and saying, “I'm in a bad spot.” that my wife is in a situation that she can help people also. So to me it's just I feel like there was also outreach to myself knowing people knowing of the situation that I went through of “Hey I'm in not such a good situation right now what do you think I should do? How do I get out of this?” and to be able to help people that way too. Never in a million years did I think I would be someone talking about “How can I protect women in abusive relationships?” but here we are. And I've kind of just put on that new hat and try to wear it with pride and do whatever I can to make things better for everybody.

 

Joni: I do want to have you just elaborate a tiny bit, because I know from talking with you before, that you your wife is in this hairstyling business. And that that's the format, that's the kind of the form that you use. But I don't think our listeners, or our viewers understand that.

 

Dustin: She owns a hair salon in central Minnesota. And we use that hair salon as a platform to help raise donations for Annamarie Alliance. So to touch back on what this battered woman shelter is and what they do, you know, the biggest things that you hear in domestic abuse relationships, before a murder happens is “I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go. I had no place to go. We have kids, we have a dog. He makes all the money. I couldn't do anything on my own.” And this is a place that the women could literally grab their kids and their dogs, and walk out the house with nothing, except for what's on their back. And land at a place that has all the food you'll ever need, all the clothes you'll ever need, all the dog food you'll ever need, make sure the kids get to school, help you find a job, help you do everything on your own so you're not so reliant on being with this abuser anymore. And it gets to the point where they find their own place to live, and they're doing amazing. So to me that's, I feel like deep down, Nikki tried to do that on her own. “I'm going to go find this place” and unfortunately there was a bait and switch that occurred. And I wish you would have called and said “Hey Jesse has money for me I'm going to go pick it up.” because I would have said “No I'll go pick it up”, you know, we had no idea, you know, if it wasn't for what she had mentioned to her coworker that he finally had a check waiting for her, and she was going to go pick it up, we would have never known what was the actual purpose of her going there. They never found a check at the scene. There wasn't an envelope of money. There wasn't anything. So it would have been there, would have been a lot more what ifs, if she wouldn’t have shared that story with her coworker. But I just wish she would have called her big brother one more time and said “Hey I'm in this situation. What do I do?” And unfortunately she didn't. And that just something that still really bugs me today.

 

Joni: thank you for sharing that yeah.

 

Jacque: For me the takeaway here is: Speak up and speak out. Don't stay silent if you're going through something that doesn't feel right in your relationship. Talk to a best friend. Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Speak to your pastor, whoever you feel like you can trust to hold your anonymity, if that's what you need. But yeah don't feel like you can't share that with someone because there are people out there who can help you.

 

Dustin: Yep absolutely.

 

Joni: Another takeaway for me, I think is, you know, as parents we always focus on, you know, teaching our kids about stranger danger or about relationships. But I think it's also about saying, you know, making sure they know that your safety is more important than me being proud of you. Me having a certain position. And that I want you to know that nothing that you could ever tell me is going to change how I feel about you. Not that that would have been the case with your parents, but I think sometimes as kids we want our kids our parents to be so proud of us that we don't tell them things. They never say that they never say we just want to hear the good things. But we want to just tell them the good things because we want them to be so proud of us. But I think starting early with that message, that “I want to be close to you. I want you to see me as somebody that you can tell anything to” is so critical

 

Dustin: For sure as well yeah to have that open line communication that “You don't have to tell me all the good. You can also tell me the bad. And I'll help you the best I can.”

 

Jacque: Dustin thank you so much for coming today and sharing your story is there anything that we've left out or anything that you feel like you want to share?

 

Dustin: No. Back to what we just discussed, don't be ashamed, you don't need to impress anybody on social media. You don't need to impress anyone in your family. Or your friends. Life's too short. Ask for help. There's so many people that want to help there's so many organizations that are out there and I know a lot of times they don't may not do a good enough job to advertise it or publicize it because maybe they don't have the funds to actually do that. But it takes one phone call to the National Domestic Abuse Hotline, and they'll put you in touch with the place that's closest to your house that you can escape to and talk to somebody in in a safe environment and get the help that you need. So I just really push, just make the phone call.

 

Jacque: Well I hope you keep doing this amazing work and advocacy. Thank you so much.

 

Dustin: Absolutely, I'll never stop.

 

Joni: You're giving your daughters such an amazing gift. The role model that you are for your kids, I think is truly incredible.

 

Dustin: Well thank you

 

Jacque: Well as we close up for today I just wanted to remind everyone we didn't mention it during this story necessarily from Dustin because there are so many different ways we can get help. But one of the reasons we started this podcast is because of the Murder-Suicide Loss Network. And if you're hearing this for the first time, or you feel like that, you know, someone or you have you're a Survivor, yourself, or you'd even like to be a part of the show, because you have a story to tell, you can reach out to us at MurderSuicideLossNetwork.com and thank you for being on thank you Joni.