Joni: I'm Dr Joni Johnson a forensic psychologist. I also have a personal interest in this as I have a family history of suicide. And I know what it's like to go through that very complicated grief process. I'd also like to welcome my co-host the amazing Jacqueline Jamason, who has been a mental health therapist for 25 years and who lost her daughter to murder suicide 10 years ago. Since then she has spent much of her personal and professional time helping other people navigate and move on from that experience. Good to see you again Jacque.

 

Jacque: You too Joni. Good to see you too. Yeah it's not the most uh fun topic to come and talk about on a Sunday afternoon is it? But it's so important.

 

Joni: It really is important. Because as we talk to different people it's like on the one hand everybody's story is different. And on the other hand some of the same things keep coming up over and over again. And you know you and I both talked about the fact that since we've been doing this podcast I'm so much more aware of murder-suicides that happen during the week. And I think about how many lives are lost between our last podcast and this one.

 

Jacque: Yeah I'm curious to, I guess, know a little bit more what you about what you saw this week.

 

Joni: Well you know one of the cases that stands out is um was a really horrendous case out of Oklahoma. Where this man Jesse Mcfadd/en who was a convicted sex offender on the sex offender registry who was released. And he had moved in with his girlfriend in 2021. And he recently, well I guess in in 2022, he shot and killed his girlfriend, her three children, and two of their friends. And so ended up killing himself. So there were seven people that were lost in just a space of a few minutes. And is it came up recently in the media because they're attempting to pass a law in Oklahoma that requires convicted sex offenders who are going to be released… there's a lot of outrage about this case because he would had some other pending charges for child pornography and things like that. It was a complicated case. But it ends tragically in seven people losing their life. And six innocent people. And you and I both know the ripple effect. So, no it isn't just that seven people are lost their lives. It's the all the families extended families, friends, church members. The whole community and the aftermath that's had on that.

 

I'm also really looking forward to talking to our guest today. Because she has also, as everybody does, a very unique experience. And she's I think going to be a really interesting guest for us to have.

 

Jacque: Yeah I'm looking I'm really looking forward to talking to her as well. And I'm okay with further ado if you want to go ahead and introduce her.

 

Joni: I definitely will. Hi Connie.

 

Connie: Hey there.

 

Joni: So Connie tell us a little bit about yourself.

 

Connie: Sure, I am a content strategist. I work in B2B technology marketing. I am a mom of two teenagers. And I'm on the leadership team of my area's trauma-informed community network. And I'm on the board of the Murder Suicide Loss Network.

 

Joni: And so, what is the trauma informed network?

 

Connie: So in my state, in Virginia, we have these regional networks, trauma informed community networks, that basically the general premise is to educate the community on the effects of trauma, to help provide resources and education, to help build healthier and more resilient communities. And part of what we do is we hold regular educational meetings for professionals in fields such as mental health, Public Health, social services, organizations that touch people who have experienced trauma. And bring them together to share information about what they're doing so they can cross-pollinate best practices. And just help keep people connected, help generate new ideas in in the community.

 

Joni: That's fantastic. I mean that sounds like such an amazing organization. And you know one of the things I think Jacque you and I talked about before we're discovering is the need for really more education for a lot of different professional groups about how to recognize and prevent, well certainly to prevent, ideally any trauma from happening. With the people they work with or people they care about but also being responsible and responsive when people have experienced trauma.

 

Jacque: Yes we have. And the and maybe we'll go into this a little bit more and as we talk about murder-suicide how mental health and or trauma or you know a collection of things can sometimes be some of the red flags are triggers for the murder suicide experience.

 

Joni: Absolutely. So Connie, you know we all know that whenever we have somebody on here that you've had an experience that most people haven't had. And we're looking forward to you telling us your story.

 

Connie: Yeah. Thank you. I'm happy to have the opportunity. I've seen some of the interviews you've done. And I know you've created a safe space here that makes, obviously a deeply personal and uncomfortable and misunderstood story, but created a space where it's okay to share it and done with the spirit of helping others, both professionals and survivors that may be navigating loss without having found a connection to others who've gone through the same. So in my case, I lost my former husband and my former brother-in-law.

 

My former brother-in-law was the one that took his own life and had made the decision to bring his brother with him. And it's been about nine years since our experience. And at the time I had two… I have two teenagers now…. My kids were aged 10 and seven. So it left me as a solo parent with two grieving children. So having to navigate my own loss and all of the complexities of having to put the puzzle to live life together. And having two kids that obviously needed a lot of support and guidance and understanding.

 

Jacque: That's a lot to undertake. I know from personal experience you know living with the grief and the trauma yourself and then having to go ahead and be there and be available for your children is not an easy task. So a lot of respect to you there. And something you said when you first came on was “holding a safe space for you and the rest of us to come and tell our story” and I think that's probably one of the most important things that we've created here. I hope. And moving forward as well for others who maybe want to come and share their story. But the other piece to that is, and we haven't talked about it a whole lot, the education part for other professionals. And I think maybe Joni at some point you it would be nice to kind of dig into that a little bit more. And maybe go back and ask some of our guests “What do you feel like you could have used?” or “What did you need” or “What do you currently need in a in a provider or in a therapist?” Now Connie I don't know if you want to answer that. Feel free.

 

Connie: I definitely you know through our Network we encounter survivors at all different chapters of their journey. And we've definitely heard the experience over, you know not everybody has this experience, but people sometimes have approached what seem like qualified trauma therapists or you know it's also can be incredibly hard to find therapy. I live in a somewhat rural area. And my options are much more limited than if I lived in a urban or suburban area. But we definitely have encountered people that have said “I've approached a therapist that seems qualified and then they have felt not equipped to deal with something this deep and this complex” And they just don't know how to do it. They have no training on it. 

 

And I was fortunate that I had a relationship with a therapist before. I hadn't seen her in in in a few years. But she was able to take me back and actually had gotten some more trauma specific training in between our experiences together. So she was helpful. Interestingly, in my case, she was a licensed marriage family therapist. And I found that kind of helpful because, and I still had some work to do to kind of put together some puzzles from my own family of origin, but you know in our case, in a lot of these cases these situations happen within families. So helping to sort of understand the dynamics of my former in-laws. And I found that really helpful. Even though she wasn't I mean she had been through like EMDR training and some other trauma focus training. She had this this interesting perspective and skill set that I think helped me quite a bit from her background.

 

Joni: So take us through, Connie, what happened from your perspective.

 

Connie: Okay so I, again, I was well divorced. The reason I say former husband, I was divorced from my former husband. And had, really, minimal, not much contact at all with my former in-laws. My brother-in-law lived in generally the same community area. And I saw him, he would come to my son's baseball games and come to my son's wrestling tournaments and come to my daughter’s she did recreational cheerleading so come to her things. He would show up for these events for my kids.

 

So I had a little bit of interaction with him. And about a year and a few months, the loss occurred in July of 2016, and in Spring of 2015 he retired. He had a long-term career as a police officer. And had been very successful. Had risen through the ranks and was in a leadership position. And I think their parameters are after 25 years you can retire. Obviously a high stress job. And so he took that path. I think he had a little more than 25 years in. And I heard about the fact that he'd retired from my former husband. And a little while, like a month or so after I'd learned, that I bumped into him spontaneously in a downtown area, in a little city where we live. And we had a chat. And he seemed to be in a really good place. I said “Hey I heard you retired. What you what are you doing now?” and he's like I'm going to take time off. I'm going to take the summer off. I'm buying a Harley, something I've always wanted to do. I’m gonna do some traveling. I'm gonna just try and relax. I just need a break for a while. Which is completely understandable. And he said my goal is by the end of the summer like September or so I will have a plan for what's next.

 

So he was definitely looking towards the future. And the other part of that conversation that was really meaningful to me is, there was a history of abuse in my relationship. And a history of abuse in their childhood. And it was mostly psychological and emotional in my relationship. They suffered a lot of physical abuse at the hands of their father when they were growing up. But he did acknowledge he's like “I know that my brother abused you and I know that he didn't provide support for you.” He was generally often unemployed. He just really didn't provide on the financial side of the picture. And he said “I've never understood why I always took care of my family, and I put my family first and we grew up in the same household and I'm so sorry that you experienced that. But I don't understand, and I'll never understand.”

 

So we had that conversation and September came. And I didn't have contact with him. But I had kind of an interesting call with my former husband where he just made a statement he said “People in my family blame me for all of his issues.” So I knew something was going on. I didn't really press. And I actually at the time said well “I'm sorry. We’re not married anymore. And I can't get involved with this, with your family, but I'm sorry that you're going through that. That is understandable.”

 

I found out later both from my former father-in-law, and there was actually um a little bit of investigation done, that there had been an incident around that time. That my former father-in-law had called, found out that his son was experiencing suicidal ideation, had called his former police employers to try and get some support. They suggested to call our local police and do a welfare check. Which was done. And when that happened he denied any suicidal ideation. And there was also some mention of the time that he had been drinking rather heavily probably since his retirement. Sort of more than normal. And so I look back now, I didn't know about that piece of the puzzle, but I look back now and say, “Oh that happened and that explains the conversation that I had about the family is blaming me for his issues.”

 

The next time I ran into him was, I think, November. The local high school was one game away from making the state championship. It was the final regional game. And it was a big, huge deal and our little, small community as it should be. And I took my kids to the game and we looked over and we saw their uncle standing on the sidelines, off away from the crowd, completely by himself. And we went over and saw him and had a little chat. And you know hugged my kids and everything. And I look back at it now and I did get the feeling like it was odd like everybody else was kind of in the celebratory mood, and sitting in the stands, and he was off there by himself. And, you know, it just struck me that I could pick up on the fact that he maybe seemed a little sad. Or a little detached. And but you know I didn't think too much of it, you know, it's more a retrospect that I pick up on that.

 

The next contact I had with him was a few months later. I think it was March. My kids were with their dad on a weekend and I stopped in a grocery store to just buy something for dinner I was going to make with them. And I bumped into him as I was checking out. And this was actually a more odd interaction. He had picked up like a pre-made sandwich at the store. And he held it up and said, “This is what life is like now.” And it was a really kind of odd thing to say. Like you're eating sandwich which is in your car. And I said to him, I said, “Why aren't you at home having dinner?” And he said “Oh that doesn't really happen much anymore.” and that was kind of the extent of the interaction. But it did kind of trip a little bit of something in in me. Like, you know, he's my former brother-in-law. I kind of felt like “What's going on?”

 

Like, I think in in different circumstances, different relationship, I said “Hey do you want to go have dinner with me? Do you want to talk?” But we didn't have that kind of interaction at that stage of our relationship. Because it definitely struck me that something was off. Because this was very unusual behavior and… do you want me to continue?

 

Joni: I was trying to get a timeline. So this is March of 2016 that you ran into him? And he was married at the time? He had a family at home? You said this was an odd thing for him to say.

 

Connie: He had two daughters [who] were in college. And so it did just strike me as odd. You know? It was a Saturday night. That he was just not enjoying his a lovely beautiful home with a beautiful great room and a fireplace that he designed. Just a really comforting and lovely space in the woods. And it just struck me as odd. That you know he was sort of not… like I did I picked up on something it just didn't seem didn't seem right to me. And then the next time that his name surfaced to me a little bit was in June. So this was about a month maybe a month to six weeks at most, before the incident.

 

So in June of 2016 I got another call from my former husband and he said “I just got this really weird call. And my brother was up visiting our parents. And he got mad at our dad. Because dad is still abusing mom. And he in the woods he called me from the woods in New Hampshire [they're from northern Massachusetts] called me from the woods in New Hampshire and said he just wants to disappear.”

 

 And again I sort of said “I really am sorry. I can't talk to you about this. This is your family. I don't have anything to offer you to help. We're divorced.” And he honored that actually. And I found out later, from an uncle, I got a little bit more clarification after the loss. That he, Mark was, or my brother-in-law was deeply depressed. And he really was having suicidal thoughts. And the uncle is a lovely human being. He's a physician. And he's one of the kindest people I've ever met. And Mark or my former brother-in-law had contacted him and they spent a long time together. And they walked in the woods together and they talked. And he told me, the uncle told me, that he felt like he left in a better place. And he felt like he had talked through some of his angst and he was feeling better when he left.

 

So that was in June. And the incident happened in July. About two weeks, actually a little over two weeks, before the loss, I was visiting my mother who lives about a hour and a half from where we lived. And my mother was elderly, and didn't drive, and you know needed she was in pretty good health but needed support, care, help running errands and things like that. And my sister who had been caring for her was just finishing up cancer treatments. And did going into a mission at that point. But really was physically drained and kind of emotionally drained. And was just not able to be a caretaker from my mom. And it had took a long time for me to convince my mom that, even though I couldn't be there all the time, I could certainly be with her when my kids were with their dad. And I would come down and help relieve, or you know support her, and take on some of that caretaking burden. And so I was down with my mom and I got a call from my former husband that he needed to go to the hospital. He had multiple health issues. I think this particular instance he had chronic gout and you know, that may know it sort of typically is in the toe, but he had it so badly he would get in other parts of his body. And I think this particular incident he had it in his knee. And his knee was really inflamed. And he couldn't walk and was just in in terrible pain. And knew that he needed to go to the hospital and he had my kids.

 

And I said “I don't think I can help you. I'm with my mom this weekend. And I'm helping her. Can you call your brother and get him to take you?” And he said “I tried. And I've left him some messages and he hasn't gotten back to me. And I really need help.” and I ended up, I tried actually, I tried to call his brother too. Left him a message and said “Hey can you help? I will get home as soon as I can. But can you get him to the hospital? Can you watch my kids for maybe three hours until I can get home and get settled down here and get there? I'll be right there as soon as I can.” And I did not hear back from him as well so I ended up leaving. And taking him to the hospital. Taking my kids.

 

That was on a Saturday. And on the Monday I got a call to my former brother-in-law. And he said “I didn't know you had my phone number.” And I said “You were my kids' emergency contact at school. So I have it through the forms. Sorry that you didn't know I have it, but I do. And need to have a talk. This has kind of gotten to the level with his health that it's getting more and more serious. We're having more incidents like these where he needs care. And I don't think it's going to get any better. I have to take care of my mom. And I'm divorced. I should not be the one he calls. You really need to start to step into that role.” and he said “Oh I will. I will pick him up from the hospital.”

 

My kids and I were actually going on vacation or trying to go on vacation. I wasn't sure if we could because I knew I had him in the hospital. But “Oh don't worry. You go on vacation I will pick him up from the hospital. I'll take him home. I'll take care of his cat at home. I will take care of everything.” And that was the last conversation I had with him.

 

That was two weeks before the incident. And I knew that there probably need to be a follow-up conversation. I was bracing myself for it. I knew I'd probably need to talk to my former father-in-law. I just knew that it had been going getting to this point for a while. Where that family needed to step in and acknowledge that their son was having health issues. And not leave his ex-wife to take care of it. So I had that conversation. And two weeks later was the loss.

 

I didn't find out right away. I found out the next day. I actually could not get a hold of my former husband. We usually had the kids; whichever parent they were with the other one would talk to them around 7:30 every evening like clockwork. And we didn't get a hold of him at the time of the nightly call. Which was concerning it wasn't completely out of the usual. But given that he just been in the hospital I was kind of concerned. Like did he did he fall? Something felt wrong. I did not really worry about it until the next morning when he still didn't call. So I sent a message to my former brother-in-law and said “Can you go check on him?” And never got a reply. And found out shortly after that through a Facebook post. That there was an incident in the neighborhood where my former husband lived. And there were two men that were found dead. And I knew in that moment that one of them certainly was my former husband. And I actually screenshotted this from Facebook and sent it to my former brother-in-law said “Can you get over there right now and check on him? I am concerned something has happened.”

 

And of course I didn't hear back. And I was with my kids. My son was actually at a baseball camp, and I was with my daughter. And I wasn't in a place where I could call the police even though I knew I needed to get in touch with the police. So I contacted one of my family members and had that person contact the police. And then found out what had happened. And I will say when I found out that there had been a murder-suicide, I actually assumed that my former husband was the aggressor. I never would have thought that Mark would have been the aggressor. And I that my former brother-in-law would have been the aggressor. It was just I was completely shocked. I you know I can look back now and put together sort of these breadcrumbs, and put the puzzle together, and see the trajectory from the person that I saw a year before who was looking forward to the next chapter in his newly retired life. To the person that a few weeks ago had been in the woods of New Hampshire. This despondent and deeply, deeply sad. And I can see the through line now even though I couldn't see it then. But my first reaction was I was surprised. I did not see this in his character at all.

 

Joni: Connie, what was their relationship like in general? Because there were some things you said that seemed kind of unusual. Your former husband saying that the family blamed him for your former brother-in-law's problems. And there seemed to be some unusual dynamics, potentially, in their relationship.

 

Connie: Yeah it's interesting. I think they loved each other. They were they were brothers. They were definitely like true brothers. They were relatively close in age. They definitely had a big brother/little brother dynamic. And I think part of the challenge was my former husband, as I said, wasn't a good provider. Never really worked. Consistently struggled with alcohol. I found out, subsequent to the loss, that I do think there were some passages in his life. And when we were married, and after, where he may have struggled with opiate addiction. I don't know for sure, but there's some puzzle pieces that lead me to believe that. And so, well, I think they loved each other. They loved to do, they both loved to camp, and they love to do outdoorsy things, and they had fun, and like to kid around with each other. I think there may have been, a couple of things, there may have been some shame that - here was this this, you know my former husband was just not a good partner, not healthy, not well-kept, not clean in some ways. Like just not a model citizen, I guess.

 

And in talking a little bit with my kids, as they' grown up and especially my son, there was some abuse towards my son that I think my former brother-in-law witnessed too. From my former husband. And I think that the more I've talked to my son, he was very close with his uncle, his uncle had two girls never had had a boy love to do some classic boy things like go to the demolition derby and go four-wheel and loved to do those things with my son. He was, you know, just loved both my kids. But really had this bond with my son. And I think it broke his heart to see that cycle continuing.

 

 

And probably, maybe even, looked to my son and saw himself, you know? Saw somebody that you know was suffering under the hands of a less capable father. And their dad, you know my understanding from both, of them was much more physically abusive. Much more, like and I'm not even diminishing what I've experienced, or my children have experienced but, like the stories I've heard about their father are pretty horrific. It never quite got to that level. But I still think he probably loved my son, identified with my son. My son definitely feels like part of his choice was a protective act.

 

I'm sure there's more pieces of the puzzle that we don't know. But somewhere in the mindset that caused him to make the choice he did, I think there was a sense of responsibility and protectiveness towards my son. And both of my kids.

 

Jacque: Thank you Connie. There's a lot there and it's pretty layered um you know as we unpack this right? I'm wondering where you were, you know after finding out what happened. Like where you were in terms of any kind of guilt. Or like what was going on with you and your feelings and your thoughts at that time?

 

Connie: I don't know that I felt a lot of guilt. Like certainly right when it happened it blindsided me, I'd say. I did not assume right away that there was anything I had done that had led to this. Because I just didn't see it coming. I didn't have that much insight into really how deep his struggles were. I look back now and I see that that phone call that I had with him as actually maybe being, kind of, pivotal in his decision to go forward with a murder-suicide versus a suicide.

 

I feel like there was enough, what I've learned retrospectively is, you know the suicidal ideation was there for at least probably nine months. And I've struggled, sometimes, with the Why. Because statistically our story is an outlier. You know, you guys, know that a lot of these incidences tend to involve intimate partners or family, which can include children. And brother to brother situations. I have never met anybody… I'm sure they exist, and I have never encountered one. And I've talked to a fair amount of survivors.

 

So for a while I was just curious about why him? Why kill his brother? And I do think as I've sort of gotten moved through the story, had some time, gotten some perspective from my kids, gotten some perspective even from the community, from family members… I think I do understand why. And I don't know that I've… I don't feel guilty about it. I wish… what I had hoped… I thought very highly of my former brother-in-law. And I saw him. He did understand the struggles I had. And I saw him as a resource and maybe a partner in getting a better solution for my kids. Getting a better solution for my former husband. I thought that we could do that together.

 

So I just did not… my experiences with him were relatively minimal in this chapter of his life. And I always thought really highly of him. He was a very capable human. I don't know.

 

Joni: It sounds like in in so many ways that he was is much more supportive and much more of an advocate for you and your kids than your ex-husband ever was really.

 

Connie: I think that's fair .as I've reflected on that dynamic, and I'll just tell you a little story and this kind of… and it could almost make you cry… I probably will cry. But a story that just sums him up for me in a way and his perspective on me: when I had my son it was the first, well not the first boy, but he we were local. And he had girls. And he adored his girls. And they're beautiful amazing young women. But he was the first person that came to the hospital and held my son. And that Thanksgiving, my son was born in October, that Thanksgiving we went to his house. And I'm in that not sleeping maternity leave mom blur. But I sit down in a rocking chair they had in their living room. And I'm holding my son, and I just made it off-handed comment “Every mom should have a rocking chair.”

 

I didn't even know wasn't even paying attention that he was sitting there, and Christmas comes. And he shows up on my porch with a rocking chair. And it totally shocked me. It was just this like actually really loving gesture. Like my off-hand comment that he picked up on it paid attention to it. You know and bought me this lovely rocking chair and brought it over. It was probably too big of a gift. It was probably more money than he should have spent on me. But it just showed I do think he actually cared. And was attentive to me. And even that conversation we had the year before when he just had retired, we had this little piece of the conversation where there was actually a police officer that was I guess patrolling or you know that was their territory that day. And he stopped him and had a conversation. Said “I just retired.” And they had a little “Thank you for my your service” exchange. And then he turned to me and he looked at me he's like “I don't even know how to introduce you anymore. What are you to me?” I'm like “Just call me your sister in-law.”

 

And it's like there was this genuine care, I think, for me and for my kids. I do think that's real. And always was real that that I thought highly of him. And I don't know we never said these words to each other, but I do feel like he thought highly of me too.

​

Jacque: Connie what has the recovery process been like for you and the kids over these last nine years?

 

Connie: It's a long, you know all too well, that it is a long recovery process. And it it's interesting I have really appreciated I think being part of our Network because it's given me opportunity to kind of learn more and research more. And I hear people, there are some people that go through this experience and they dive into research and they want to learn as much as they can. And ironically I didn't. Even though I'm a big-time researcher. I didn't do that with this life scenario. I didn't have time with kids, it's probably the bottom line.

 

But there's a model that I've seen um through TAPS, the military organization, I always forget what the acronym stands for. But they provide support to military connected families that have experienced trauma and tragic events. And they have this pyramid model of navigating complicated grief. And the bottom is stabilization like: Do you have housing? Do you have food? Do you have a job?

 

 The middle part of the pyramid is grieving. And that's the biggest chunk of the pyramid. And at the very top is post-traumatic growth. And it's, all grief is heavy, it's very heavy grief. And you're grieving multiple people. You're grieving the loss of an expectation of life. You're grieving a sense of normality that you had. You're grieving, you know in my case, the future for your kids. Having you know dad and uncle around at your graduations, and weddings, and milestones. And it took me probably a good solid eight years to, I think, get through that big grief junk of the puzzle or the pyramid.

 

and I remember it was 2023. So like almost well a year and a half ago. You know my therapist that I'd seen forever just made a comment one day like “You are still grieving.” I did not think that I would still be grieving it was then seven years out from this. And I actually had the awareness then. I had never really thought of myself as a suicide survivor. And really understanding that I don't know probably, just because of the distance, because it's former family, that I had really let myself kind of properly grieve my former brother-in-law. And that was kind of eye opening to me, that I needed to spend time with that grief too. And it really was participating more regularly with the Murder Suicide Loss Network. Stepping into a more leadership role, facilitating meetings… and just being present for more people that kind of got me out of the grief, and starting to get into that post-traumatic grief.\

 

and I know in that model, in my experience, you get to a place where it starts to feel better. But you can be knocked back at any time and be reexperiencing. And certainly we all I think go through the anniversaries. The holidays are hard. The birthdays are hard. And for my kids, it's interesting because they're very different people. My son has actually talked about potentially being a mental health professional. Or certainly wants to do something people oriented, and really has embraced going to therapy, and is pretty open about it. My daughter keeps some of her feelings about it closer to herself. Hasn't really wanted to open up. And it's interesting just even their ages she was 7 he was 10. He has much more kind of memory, much more… he did understand that something was wrong. He did not always have words to put to what was wrong. But he knew something was off. He knew his uncle wasn't well. They both saw him cry. They both just had these experiences with him where they knew he was sad. And other times he was lovely and he was the gift giving uncle. And the uncle you know that that took my son in particular on lots of adventures and things like this. And you know that dichotomy I think is has been hard for them. But it's a journey. And I think they're both really amazing. But I think we're all aware that they this is a lifetime grief. And I think any early losses, but this one is complicated and hard.

 

Joni: I was wondering as you were talking about how you felt so blindsided, you know, when you first heard the news. It was just something that was just almost unfathomable, I would imagine. How do you, what words do you use to then talk to your 7 and 10-year-old children about what has happened?

 

Connie: Yeah. I talked to the police. And had a family member there that stayed with my kids while I was having that conversation. And I told them. I you, know, I came in… it's really sad. Like I had found out, and I knew that the police were heading over to officially inform me. And they were in the living room and playing with this car track, like one of the ones like a car slope thing. And my son had been to his baseball camp. My daughter had cheerleading camp this afternoon. Just like living having childhood. And I remember looking at them and being like your life is about… all of our lives, but your life is about to change.

 

And I just I told them. I said, “I'm really sorry to tell you this but your father is dead. And your uncle killed him. And your uncle killed himself.” And, obviously, they cried. They were in shock. The one thing I did do, when I was with the police officer, because I read a bit about trauma, it's not my vocation, I don't work in in mental health, but I read I think it was Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman that there was talk about one of the first things, or people that experience trauma need to get into counseling really as soon as possible. To help kickstart that that journey. And help just, not normalize, but that that this is going to be okay part of the journey. So we had set up through the police officer helped me set up a crisis counseling appointment for them this afternoon. Like we're you know so… that was that was it but I did tell them. I know I hear from people that that struggle. But there was no hiding I think what happened in situation for me. And I know my daughter was the one, she kept asking like “How did the police actually know?” Like she was like, “Did someone come and kill both of them?” Because this doesn't she didn't make sense to her either. Like, “How do they know that, Mom? Like how do they know that this is what happened?” I'm like, “Police know how to investigate things. And they know.” And it took her a while to kind of accept that. That fact that her uncle had behaved this way towards her dad.

 

Jacque: It sounds like you all had a really good relationship with your brother in-law. I'm wondering, have you struggled at all with resentment? or have the kid struggled at all with resentment or anger?

 

Connie: Interestingly my daughter has, some. And they both admit, and this is just a hard thing to say as a parent, but their life with their dad was chaotic. He drank. Some things have come out afterwards that he would do things like he would drive aggressively, drink with them. He was behaving physically aggressively towards my son. And there was a lot of emotional abuse towards my son. And would do some things that actually put them in danger sometimes. Would not always pick them up reliably from school when they were supposed to. So they both readily admit that as awful as it is to lose your dad, that they have just a more normal, safer, calmer life with just me. Which is really hard. Like that's a really hard thing to say. And that's not to say, we talk about their dad every day. And we talk about the good and the bad. And my son doesn't really have any resentment. He even today, because I talked to him a little bit before want to talk to you guys because I strongly feel this is not just my story it's our story; and he said “I think it's complicated. I think there's probably more than I know about why my uncle chose to do this. But I think a piece of it was that he loved me. And he wanted to protect me.” And he doesn't have really resentment or anger about it.

 

My daughter has some. And she was a little closer to her dad. Like my son even said today that there would be times like when they would split off. He would go with the uncle; she would go with her dad. And even, he's like, “Even if we're going to the same place if I'm riding in a car and I have an extra 40 minutes with him like we just bonded more.” And so she has some more anger than he does. And I know sometimes, my son has even kind of talked to him about, like “Wow kind of a hero. Like he it's not that this is good. But he protected me.”

 

And my daughter will say “Like, what are you talking about? Like, no, he isn't a hero. He killed my dad.” And so they do have these very different perspectives. So… it's interesting. And I'm sure that'll evolve in time.

 

Joni: It makes so much sense in a way. Because, you know, one of the interesting things, I think, when you have murder and suicide in the same family, is you have these different relationships that people have with each other. And from what I'm hearing you say Connie, it's like your son had this very special relationship with his uncle. A very unique relationship in some respects. He kind of the only boy who was kind of in that area. And his dad was harder on him. Was more abusive toward him. So you have this kind of complicated relationship with his dad. And then you have this uncle, who's in his mind, wonderful, and his protector, and his buddy. And all the kinds of things. And then you have a daughter who has a very different relationship with her dad. Who isn't experiencing, for example, I mean, she was obviously experiencing some of the dangerous parts of things and some of those kinds of things. But maybe not the abuse to the same extent that her son was. And then she didn't have that close of a relationship, as close perhaps, as your son did with your former brother-in-law. And so I would imagine they would have different… how has it impacted their relationship with, I'm talking about your kids, right?

 

Connie: I don't know. They have an interesting relationship, I think. They, I think, you're right. That in that classic sense, when you talk about abusers, sometimes they have this sort of golden child/scapegoat dynamic. And I think, you know, and that's simplifies things. And that might even be a great clinical way to present it. But certainly like pop psychology, like how people talk about these divisions. And certainly they get along. My kids have an interesting relationship. They're very different. And they frustrate each other because they're siblings. But they get along. But I do think my son definitely has that perception, that my daughter… the daughter was their dad's favorite. And interestingly he always wanted a daughter. Like he had a son. He was happy to have a son. But he always, you know, kind of wanted that; my former husband always wanted a daughter. So they both had sort of their wishes fulfilled.

 

But I don't think that it's… like the dichotomy, they don't really argue about it. They don't really… you know, I think they both agree you know life's more comfortable with just Mom. Dad… even though my daughter had a better relationship, still super complicated guy. And so I think they're kind of aligned on that. But I do think my son has a little resentment towards his dad for sort of putting his sister on a pedestal and treating him like the scapegoat. Or, sort of, more of the target in this scenario.

 

Joni: I have to believe that part, of their good relationship between your son and daughter has to be the gift you've given them, Connie. Because you really seem to allow them to have their own individual thoughts, and feelings, and stories, and interpretations without judgment. And that to me, as a mom, is such a gift for them. Because it allows them to then have their own relationship without feeling like they have to what? You know, like one of them has the right answer or the wrong answer. Which is when… you see sometimes siblings start dividing between themselves.

 

Connie: Yeah, I think that's true. And one of the most powerful things that's ever been said, in one of our support groups, and I don't think you were there… I think this was before you joined us actually. But one member said that advice that she had gotten from her therapist, and she was pretty new in her journey, is you have to pick your Why. Like, we could speculate all day and we're really never going to know Why. Because the Why is with a person who's no longer with us. That ultimate puzzle. Like, I am sure his family and people that knew him have other perspectives on the Why than we do. But I do think that's very true. Like my son feels very definitively that this was a protective act. And my daughter, I don't know, she doesn't like to talk about it at the same level of depth that he does. But I'm sure when she feels more comfortable about it she'll find the Why that's comfortable for herself.

 

and I choose, I don't deny what happened. Because there's no denying what happened. But I do choose to see the brother-in-law that bought me the rocking chair. And I do choose to see the person that chose a career in in being a police officer because he wanted to be on the side of good. He was complicated. I don't know and I don't know that he didn’t, but I don't expect that he probably ever went through the depth of counseling, or any type of form of self-care, to, sort of, get through his childhood experience probably not. I know he was complicated. But I choose to remember him as the good person. And I think, I actually think both of them do.

 

Jacque: There's a couple things that have come up for me that we're seeing sort of trends across are: substance abuse, depression. In this case, there was not only childhood trauma but there was being a police officer for 25 years. Which in and of itself holds a lot of complex trauma, I would imagine. And so I just think it's interesting that we're seeing that sort of across the board. There are multiple complex issues, or traumas I guess, you could say in these individuals.

 

I'm wondering what your relationship is like now. Or maybe it doesn't exist. With your ex-husband and your brother-in-law's family? and your brother-in-law's wife and kids?

 

Connie: Yeah. Before this happened there was a fracture in that relationship. It was actually quite a while before. But my husband and I, were still married. And I tried a little bit after the loss to make some reconnections. And I found the dynamic that was still going on between their parents, the father was still abusing the mother. That was still going on. And I did not feel comfortable stepping back into that dynamic, especially with my kids. It's a super complicated thing. I did not expect my father former father-in-law to grow… but I figured out pretty quickly that that he could not accept that maybe his abuse was a factor in this. And there was actually some communication I got from their family that he was blaming the mom, who was a lovely person. Like it's all because you were a bad mom. You caused this. Like there was and I didn't feel comfortable continuing with my kids and that dynamic. And I think that was the right choice. Tough choice. And I questioned it a lot.

 

But part of that, like you said, like that sort of finding your own Why. I realized that if I had stayed in that dynamic that, just the way that the dynamic sort of centered around my former father-in-law, like everybody almost was trying not to make him angry. Or not trying to. Like, people cared about their mom. But you know he was the central figure in their family and had a lot of emotional control over their family. And I didn't want his story. His story wasn't true.

 

and I didn't want that influencing my story, or our story, if that makes sense. And so I've chosen to maintain some distance. And my kids, so far, like as they grow up and be adults, they can make what choice is right for them. And I don't know. I don't really envision myself…

 

I used to have just this family in such high regard. Even though I knew there was abuse. They're all just educated. Like, they're even my former father-in-law, kind of… I don't want to say superficially lovely people, but you would not point fingers at that family and assume abuse. They were professional, successful people. And I always assumed that one day we would all come together and sit in a circle, and hug, and talk through this difficult family situation. And now I understand that was that was a naive dream. And I don't consider myself part of that. And as my children, if you know, I support them in doing whatever feels correct to them.

 

Jacque: One thing we didn't really talk about was the fact that you do come from a small, very small, community. So I'm not exactly sure what to envision in my head. Other than everyone kind of knows everyone. Would I be accurate in saying that?

 

Connie: You be.

 

Jacque: And so, I'm wondering… we've talked with other people that have come and told their story, about keeping secrets. And, you know, looking like one thing on the outside when really something else on the inside is going on. And I'm just wondering is that sort of the dynamic here, do you think, with that family?

 

Connie: Yeah. I mean my, you know, the in-laws live kind of far away. So there definitely was that dynamic in their family, growing up. I've heard plenty of stories about that. I do think it is hard. And I have struggled with being that family. That everybody knows for all the wrong reasons. And having your family's story in the newspaper. And it's part of the story. And not the full story. And having people fill in the gaps with incorrect information and act like it's true. And talk about you know… so it super hard. You know a super hard thing to contend with.

 

like I think it's fair. I have always, I think from the beginning of this, and maybe because I was closer to the to the “victim” and not that he wasn't the victim, but I don't know, I struggle sometimes with these inter-family things. With the perpetrator/victim dynamic and language. And that's something I need to work through. But because I didn't carry the emotions around my loved one having taken someone's life, I have never really… like this is one of the first times I've spoken about it. But I've never had an issue with being honest about it. And I think sometimes, and we certainly hear it come up all the time in our group, that sometimes when you're more connected to the person that was the aggressor it is it is harder to, kind of, own that truth. And certainly harder to maybe talk outside of a very smaller safe space.

 

So I mean it's kind of fair that, I think there's you know some you know a different dynamic on their equation than there is.

 

Jacque: Would you call it a relief? like it's almost a relief that person that committed the crime, committed the crime against somebody who wasn't that you know who was causing some problems?

 

Connie: Yeah. I mean, I think that's… it's interesting my son and I were just talking about this. About you, know they, were both complicated. And they both grew up with this complicated experience with their dad. And, you know, the perpetrator/victim dynamic is a little fuzzy I think in this scenario. And I've even heard, interestingly I've read a little bit about domestic violence, and I saw something in one of our sites here in Virginia. Domestic violence organization talking about changing the language, and not sure that I completely agree with this, but from you know the “perpetrate abuse” to sort of the “victim-perpetrator.” Lind of acknowledging that in almost all cases and you guys could speak to this better than I could that a person that you know perpetuates abuse has experienced abuse. And while that doesn't excuse their choices you do have to acknowledge that they have unhealed probable trauma from their own childhood.

 

So I do think that… it doesn't it wasn't a right choice obviously. To you know… in this dynamic or in any of these dynamics. But to understand that it was… you know… the way I look at it was he was, at least with that last phone call with me, and you need to help take ownership of your brother, put in kind of this impossible situation where he… you know his… my former husband wasn't going to heal I had accepted that. And it's one of the reasons that I exited the marriage. And he just wasn't going to change. And I think at this point you know his brother knew that too. And he had helped. We had had these conversations in the past. He had, before we even married, I said “Your brother needs help. I think he needs… he's not listening to me. He needs to go to a psychiatrist. He needs some counseling.” And he had that hard talk and got him to go to counseling. And we had it multiple times throughout the course of our relationship.

 

And here we were having this conversation again. And he's probably like “Nothing is going to change with him. He is just not going to change. He's not going to take ownership of how he behaves towards his kids. How he behaved towards his wife. What do I do? I feel stuck. This is impossible.”

 

So I do think it's complicated. Not justified. But I can understand if you're already struggling with depression and suicidal thoughts, how potentially you could rationalize this as he needed to do something. He needed to make a choice. And he needed to act. And the other equation would have been hard discussions with his family. With his dad to, you know, like really putting him in this almost impossible situation. And I wouldn't, you know, I would have been… I would have helped. I wasn't going to abandon the situation because he's the father of my children. But I can understand you know why this just felt like such an impossible thing to do. And made, you know, an irrational choice to try and quickly solve a problem.

 

And I'm again, I may be wrong/ I see a side of the puzzle. And a piece of the puzzle there was infinitely probably more complexity going on that I didn't see.

 

Jacque: Yeah. Connie I'm wondering… Now sort of that you're telling your story and there's some things you said… a few times today you said “I've never really said this out loud.” What do you hope people listening to this will take away from it? What do you hope they will get? Maybe if they see it and they know you, like what are you hoping for in terms of the audience takeaway?

 

Connie: I think… you know we talk about this in the group a lot. But I do think, you know, and this is called the Final Act. But we say a lot people are more than their final act. And these situations are complicated. I do think they can be somewhat sensationalized. Or people say “Oh bad person. Murderer.” and kind of put this label on somebody. And they don't see the whole complexity behind it. And I think there's definitely not an understanding that in a lot of these cases the suicide is sort of primary. That the person is deeply hurting and suicidal. And not a, you know, I hate to throw on terms like this like not a “psychopath” not “crazy”. You know, like they're just they're a person that's carrying a lot of weight and a lot of pain. And you know I think that's part of it you know just helping to kind of humanize this situation for people is part of it. And obviously as someone that does some work now with survivors, you know, I think we're all hopeful that survivors will see these stories and you know find things that resonate with them. And know that they're not alone. And know that there's spaces that they can go to find support. Because I know, I felt very alone for six years until I found the group - the Murder Suicide Loss Network. And it's I think you may have talked about it had sort of a former iteration, a little bit with the with the original founders. But some of these things that I have carried with me. Like the fact that I and kind of have this fractured family situation. I'm not the only one. We we're not the only family that hasn't you know all come together into alignment around this situation.

 

for a while like I've always worked. But I was freelancing at the time. And I had this desire to get back into a full-time appointment. But that felt so insurmountable for me for a long time. Just the whole process of applying for jobs. And it was kind of with two kids that I needed to be very present. For but you know, other people have kind of struggled with sort of putting the puzzle of work and life and all of these dynamics back together. So I'm hoping that people can understand. I get so much from hearing every story. Even situations that are completely different from mine, I always find something I can take away and feel connected with. With every single story I hear. And I'm hoping that as more of us talk about this, in the safe space, that it will be less stigmatized no matter where you fall whatever your connection to the story is.

 

Jacque: Yeah thank you. So Connie I don't know if you just want to you know remind everyone a little bit about the group and how they can get in touch with us. Sure so we've mentioned a few times the Murder Suicide Loss Network. It is really the first organization that was founded on a national, and we have actually have members from Canada, but North American basis. For survivors of murder-suicide loss. There's some support in one particular state or through you know military connected. There can be some places where you can find support. But our two founders found each other through sharing their stories on the internet. And realized from that powerful connection that they needed to just create space. And just be available to support more survivors.

 

Connie: So they held the first support group in November of 2020. And they've been held on a regular basis since then. Normally every two weeks. We now hold them every two weeks. And our website which is MSLnetwork.org. We have multiple domain names but that's one of them. There's a an intake form that anybody can fill in. And usually there's two of us that will meet for a very brief half-hour intake. Just sort of a getting to know you. Share sort of the basics of our stories. Hear a little bit about that that person's story. And tell them about the group.

 

And once people join then they're able to get invitations, to be on our invitation list, for our regular support group meetings. The groups are pure facilitated. And we accept all types of survivors whether they have a closer connection to the perpetrator, or aggressor, the victim, both. A lot of us have a connection to both. Community members, we've had one person that joined, there maybe more than one but one that I have met that it was a neighbor. We also work with people who are attempt survivors, so one of the parties, or one or more, may have lived through the experience. And we really just try to provide an open and safe space and meet people where they are in their journey. We have people that, because there never has been a space to go, we have people that are coming and being in a space with other survivors who are 30 plus years out from their experience. We have people that are recent. We sometimes get people join that are weeks to months after their experience. It's a completely open. People can come and go as they need to. We find sometimes people will come when they have a new loss and they'll stay for a while then they'll take a step back. We have people that we haven't seen in a while that will come back when there's an anniversary or a birthday. Or some kind of you know event or experience that reactivates something for them. So it's very flexible. There's no… once you join there's no requirement to join. There's no curriculum. We've talked about doing some more structured, phased curriculum. But we're still rather new in our journey there. And that's a big piece of what we do. Working with this podcast and some other advocacy work we're stepping into. And some things that I don't even know that the two of you know about that that are on our horizon. So we're always going to keep that support in place and be there for survivors. But helping to just expand the education piece, and the awareness piece, and the connection piece. Just to help both the survivors but help the community that wants to help the survivors just understand the dynamic of the loss and the experience more.

 

Jacque: Thank you so much. Absolutely um the Murder Suicide Loss peer support group has helped me in in ways that individual therapy hasn't in a 10-year period. So I'm very grateful for that. Joni thank you so much for supporting this podcast. And for all that you are doing. Did you have something you wanted to say before we close?

 

Joni: I just wanted to thank Connie. I mean we started out our podcast when you and I were talking about doing it talking about the real experts are the people who've lived through it. And I believe that a 1000% and I just I think my life has been changed by hearing these stories over the past several weeks. So I just can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on and telling your story. And also you Jacque for being there.

 

Connie: As I've grown I… obviously this is the worst thing that has ever happened in my life. But as I've worked with the group more and connected with other survivors, I'm starting to really realize that the power in lived experience. And starting to really look at it as an asset. And one of I don't know if I'd call it a gift. I would return this gift if I could. But honestly just realizing that it it is so powerful to have lived through this and start to be on the other side of it. And start to be able to give back. And so thank you. And thank you for um just acknowledging that power as part of your podcast.

 

Jacque: Yeah absolutely. Well Connie thank you so much. I know I learned a lot about you today. And so I look forward to hearing whatever new is coming as well for the Murder Suicide Loss Network. And thank you everyone for joining us. And stay tuned.