Joni: Welcome to the final act. I'm Dr. Joni Johnson, a forensic psychologist and private investigator. And I'm very happy once again to welcome my wonderful co-host Jacqueline Jameson, who has been a mental health professional for the past 25 years and who lost her daughter to murder-suicide 10 years ago. So good to see you again Jackie.

 

Jacque: You too Joanie. Thank you so much. Great to be here. I wish it was a different topic but I think this is something, I know this is something, that we need to talk about and share with the world and say it more we need to say these words more. As I was thinking about today and the wrap-up that we're going to do and we're going to talk about all of the experts we've interviewed, I was thinking the words “murder-suicide” aren't heard. You know, we're hearing “suicide” more out in the world but we don't really hear “murder-suicide.” And there's kind of this, you know, I can feel it I feel this tension when I say it even.

 

Joni: We certainly don't hear those words used together very often. And we talked at our very first episode about kind of some of the reasons that we were doing this podcast and YouTube channel was to, really, I guess for me it was to understand it myself better also. You know I had some family history of suicide and I certainly can relate to that on a professional as well as a personal level. But in my research I just kept coming across these news stories about murder-suicide involving families involving children. And, you know, my concept of murder-suicide had been a mass shooting. You know, somebody who went into a school who killed a bunch of people and then killed themselves. That was my concept of murder-suicide. And I think that's a lot of people's concept still. While that is one form of, or one version I guess, of murder-suicide in reality that is certainly not the most common.

 

Jacque: Right. Exactly. Those just happen to be the ones that we hear about the most, that make the media, the news, the most. I think because so many people are impacted all at one time. But even then we don't hear the words “murder-suicide.” What we hear is “school shooting” or “mass shooting.” And so, I think this terminology needs to be one that we definitely use more so that we understand the underpinnings of it.

 

Joni: Absolutely. And one of the things that makes it hard is the fact that there is no national database on murder-suicide. So it's very difficult to gather those statistics and kind of talk about how common it is. I know I found, doing some of the research, trying to figure out as a starting place about murder-suicide is like “how common is it?” The best estimates I found is that between 1,00 and500 people in the United States die every year by murder-suicide. And about 15% of those are children. And so, while it certainly isn't a common occurrence, if you're tuned into the media, like I am, in terms of doing research on these kinds of topics it comes up over and over again. You know, multiple times a week.

 

Jacque: Yeah definitely. Unfortunately only, I would say what less than 1%, actually make big news or Netflix documentaries or things like that? I think we can reference you know recent a recent case like the Gabby Patito case and those big ones. Those are the ones that we hear about But even then it's not, you don't hear “murder-suicide. You just hear the story but I don't think that I don't think that what we're doing is connecting the dots from the perpetrator to the to the victim and the survivors and the whole dynamic that's happening here.

 

Joni: I think you're right I think there's a lot of work to be done in this topic. And I'm wondering what it's been like for you Jacque to go through this journey over the past eight weeks and hear different experts sharing their personal stories, and hearing the different versions of how it impacted them, and how it evolved, and how they were how they found out and just all the different things we've talked about?

 

Jacque: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. And I was actually thinking about that this morning as I was sort of preparing for us to talk today. And it has been it has been really good for me to, I think, reconnect myself to different kinds of stories. And it's given me permission to sort of reopen, or unpack, what I went through in a different kind of way. And 10 years out versus maybe 5 years out is such is such a huge shift in how I think about things, how I process it, and even the grief that surrounds it. And also I think, you know, my ability to kind of take a step back and look at trends and things like this. You know, the terminology. And maybe, if there is something we can do. And I think we're just getting it out there. And, you know, I've been thinking about this over the years I as I contemplate writing a book, or telling my story, or you know just unsure about which direction to go. David Kesler who I don't know if you're familiar with David Kesler's work but he worked with Kubler Ross on the stages of grief. And he came up with a what he wanted to be like the sixth stage of grief which Kubler Ross didn't fully buy into before he passed away. But his idea of the sixth stage of grief, which I fully agree with after going through this is, finding purpose. You know. in in the loss. And so for me going through this is just sort of reigniting my fire around finding purpose. And it has been very helpful for me and sort picking back up where I left off several years ago when I just wasn't ready. And so I'm very grateful for you and the rest of the team and the murder-suicide Loss Network and in the community that we can we have a safe space to do this.

 

Joni: Well I really appreciate that Jacque. And I tell you, I felt so honored these past eight weeks. Because, you know, I just contacted this group out of the blue really. I mean I had written a couple articles about murder-suicide. I was like “What is going on?” As a mental health professional I never heard about murder-suicide. I think there's a potential for the risk factors to fall through the cracks which is something we'll talk about. And I still think that. And you know I was just really amazed that there were so many people who were willing to trust me not knowing me at all and what my agenda might, be certainly in the true crime space, and be willing to open up and come on and share such personal details and experiences. And I know I've said this before, I guess I feel a need to say it again, just how important it is for me to just hang on to these stories and take it forward in any other media work that I do. And just always be sure I'm always being as ethical as I can be, and respectful, and you know victim centered. And I mean things that I aspire to anyway. But there's nothing like hearing people's stories to really hit that home. Because you know you've lived it our other experts have lived it. And hearing that and hearing the emotion in the voice and just the memories is just so powerful.

 

Jacque: It is. And you know we tell I feel like we live in our story. Each every human being we live in our story. And so I've gone through periods where I feel like “Who wants to hear this?” You know? Like “How am I unique? And why would anyone want to… why would anyone care?” You know what I mean?

 

But what I've learned is by holding it in, it's almost kind of selfish because there are so many people that are impacted. Because it's not just the perpetrator and the victim. It's family members, and friends, and the fallout from this kind of thing is far and wide. You know: communities. My whole church for instance was impacted. And so holding it in and not sharing it really is a disservice, even though it's really hard sometimes to talk about it. And I've also had people say “You know…” Because I'm in recovery now. I participate in in Alcoholics Anonymous as part of my recovery process from all of this. People say to me "Wow I really thought you know I had it bad.” or “I thought my situation with X Y or Z in my relationship was really bad. And I hear your story and you give me hope, and you inspire me, and I feel so much different or better or whatever it is you know."

 

And so I think that's too why it's important. Because it it's so relatable to people in terms of… well so for me, when I see things that I haven't experienced like war in other countries and things like that I think “Oh my gosh, those you know poor people. And how devastating it must be to grow up in that kind of environment, or experience that kind of loss.” It's the same kind of thing I think for us for people who live a you know more comfortable life or who haven't experienced this kind of trauma to hear and think “I don't have it till bad.”

 

Joni: You know, two to things came to mind when you were talking Jacque that I wanted to ask you about. One is you know especially with you having shared your story, I wonder how you decide to share that story with somebody? And I wonder, I mean I was just thinking as you were talking I was thinking, you know even somebody kind of saying "How many kids do you have?" Like how do you answer that question? And how do you know it's a safe space to talk to that person? And yeah I mean those are things I think that could happen regularly. And these are things that most people don't even think twice about. I have this many kids or they don't think about well how do I navigate that and how much do I share and is it safe to share? And how do you make those decisions?

 

Jacque: Well now that I've aged a little bit I don't get that quite as often. You know since my son is now 21. But I still get it. But in the last 10 years I have gotten that question a lot. You know I'll say "Oh my son this or my you know my kids that." “Oh really How many do you have? How old are they?” And it's an immediate gut punch. It's you know the sinking feeling and the you know I my heart races and it's kind of like an instant anxiety right? And it really just depends on the moment, who's asking, where I'm at, how I'm feeling, how much time do I have? So in that moment it just kind of happens and either I share it or I don't.

 

I think sometimes I was meant to share because then I've had other people say to me “I lost my child too. They died of an overdose. or they this or they that.” And then they show me their necklace with their urn, or their tattoo, or whatever it is that where they memorialize their child. Now it wasn't necessarily murder-suicide, but I've met many parents because of that and sometimes I've said, "Oh I have two children." and sometimes and like “I have two children you know one's here with me and one's in heaven.” “Oh really?” And sometimes they'll say "Well what happened?" And I'll say, "Oh it's really tragic. You know if I if you want to know I'll tell you.” But earlier on that was a lot more difficult because I would just panic, and leave, or not answer, or cry… you know whatever it was. That was just really, really hard. And as the time has gone on and I've learned how to navigate that of course it's become a lot easier. And sometimes I would just say “I have one. He's 21.” And I just leave it.

 

Joni: I think it's great to have that permission, I mean it's your story. You know, our stories our experience is our own story. And we get to decide how much we share that, or how little we share that with other people. But there are things that I think a lot of us don't think about on a regular basis. Those kind of just everyday questions people ask sometimes just to fill in the gaps or make conversation can be very difficult depending upon that person's experience. In terms of how they answer that.

 

Jacque: It's like any other trauma, really. So I still… I just went to the grocery store before I came here and I still get a an empty feeling, or a, you know sort, of a little bit of a gut punch every time I go down a grocery store aisle with baby stuff in it. Because my daughter was 2 and a half. And I felt like I didn't get to finish that cycle with her. And so those are the kinds of things whatever the memories are like any other trauma or post-traumatic stress, those things you know depending upon who was you were involved with, who your family member was, how it happened, what have you. Of course it's a daily grind for sure.

 

Joni: You know, we were lucky enough to hear people who had different life experiences, in terms of who the perpetrator was, and who the victim was, and so I think that was so helpful to see that there is no one way to feel or one way to grieve or things like that. And one of the things that did strike me is just different relationships that people had. And such different feelings that we that people have expressed about the family member who was the perpetrator. So you know we talked when Connie was on, I thought you know it was amazing to me to hear her story. That this is somebody who really felt more connected to the, you know, her brother-in-law who was the person who killed her ex-husband. Than she did her you know the victim. And so another I think interesting perspective in terms of talking about how this common term that we use “murder-suicide” is so unique from for each person's experience. And it depends upon like you said so many factors in terms of those relationships and what actually happens.

 

Jacque: Yeah as a practitioner especially, or anyone any lay person really. I think we have to be very careful about assuming. Because I felt myself, even during her interview, assuming that maybe there was guilt on her part about feeling okay with him and still having, she was almost as if he helped the situation because her ex-husband… you know she had domestic violence, and different things that she experienced. And so I think we just have to be very diligent, especially as practitioners, to not assume that somebody feels any kind of way about a perpetrator in a situation where they were deemed the perpetrator.

 

Joni: Yeah there's probably a better word for that than I'm using. I don't know what it would be.

 

Jacque: I mean for all intents and purposes it's the murderer. And so that word is very harsh, and it's very demeaning, and it's stigmatizing. And in our country, in particular, that that's a criminal. That's that person is like probably that's the worst thing somebody can do right? Yet we have Connie here saying “I remember the good things.” I don't I don't know if she used the word blame. “I don't blame him. I don't you know it just was what it was.” And I I was I was going to say the word shocked. but I was like "Wow." Okay. All right.

 

Joni: Well I similarly. I did. You know, when you first started talking about that because, again, we all assume that you know there's a murderer and there is a victim, that of course it's black and white, right? It's that this is the bad person this is the good person. And yet, when you have situations where, I mean and there's no doubt that taking another person's life is a bad thing no matter what the circumstances are. So I'm not in any way excusing anybody's behavior. There's so much pain and loss that was created.

 

At the same time you know Connie's experience was very different than other people's experience. And her relationship with each individual was different. And so, to that extent you're absolutely right. It's like in her mind, you know, as she said, she separates out, to some extent not completely, but the act or what happened with her relationship and her feelings about these individuals.

 

Jacque: Right For sure. Yeah. And I think it was Jenna, was the other one who didn't hold blame for her brother. And that dynamic was similar. She said she felt some relief that what had happened, happened. Right? And so that's another scenario where we just have to honor the person's story and their feelings, wherever they are. Because the day that we interviewed her she mentioned the word relief, but that doesn't necessarily mean that later today or tomorrow she might not be angry at her brother And so it that you know depends on the moment as well.

 

Joni: Well I think the other part of that, one of the things that was so unique about Jenna's story, was just the prevalence of mental illness. Just that you know the fact that her brother had struggled with mental illness for years, and didn't want to take medication, and I think and this is such a hard one, I think, as a mental health professional that we talk so much about getting help, and getting resources, and yet I'll tell you as somebody with a family member who had bipolar disorder, my dad. What do you do when there is an adult who doesn't want to take medication and part of that illness is a lack of insight? And, you know, and you know the person might go into the hospital or you might be able to put this person in the hospital for 72 hours or 48 hours. And then the person's not actively suicidal or not actively homicidal. And it's like right it's so hard to talk about that reality. That it's hard to get help. I mean it's hard to know what to do. And I remember, I think my remembrance at least of Jenna's story, part of it is, that she felt relief because she was so often in that caretaker role, I think, for her brother. And also I think worried about her mom, and you know was aware that this could… I’m not saying that this could happen, but aware that her brother might commit suicide, or was expecting that. And so, all those feelings that she had about that that relationship. And just I mean it just was so, you know, kind of heartbreaking, I guess in a way. Because sometimes those resources are just difficult to get. And we have to and they're always going to there's going to be something there you know. But I do want to honor that sometimes it is difficult to get resources in situations like that. When you have somebody who's not, for whatever reason, perhaps because of their mental illness, not aware of the problems they're actually having and creating for other people.

 

Jacque: Right. Yes, for sure. And, you know, there are certain diagnoses and certain disorders that are more, I don't want to use the word “dangerous”, but definitely, you know, unmedicated can pose more of a risk to themselves and or others. But those typically are the ones that are the hardest to treat because they typically are more non-compliant. And then we have a system, at least in America, that isn't necessarily set up for that. To care for those individuals in a way maybe that they need to be cared for. And so the families are left to sort of figure it out. And when you have a child, or anyone in your family anyone that you love really a partner whoever, that is sick in that way and they can't, for whatever reason, be compliant. Or don't want to as part of the disorder, what do you do? Right I mean you love them and you do the best you can and you hope nothing bad happens but sometimes this is what happens.

 

Joni: Yeah. One of the things I wanted to be sure and talk about, we were planning for this and trying to think about all the things we wanted to say and communicate, and I guess two things that are really important to me to talk about.

 

One is risk factors. And you know one of the things that we heard so often from just about everybody almost, that came on and was our expert, was just this kind of link between domestic violence, coercive control, some kind of abuse that was going on in their family and murder-suicide. And I think that that's something that needs to really be talked about. That you know we I think we the awareness around domestic violence, interpersonal homicide has become greater. I don't know that we've seen a lot of reduction unfortunately in homicides as result. But I think that we're the word is getting out there people are talking about it and the risk factors. And yet I don't know that that murder-suicide is seen as a potential outcome of this. And I think it's really, really important for people to be aware of that.

 

And also the fact that one of the things that struck me, in doing some in in some of the stories and doing some of the reading and those kinds of things, is my concern being that the risk factors, that are somewhat unique to murder-suicide, which we're going to be talking about. I think because they're this combination, oftentimes, not always, but this combination often times of mental health issues and domestic violence. I think sometimes different people may be assessing different parts of that elephant, if you will. And not everybody's… nobody is seeing, or it's easy not to see what it really is. Or that the risk is much greater than, you know, either person may be thinking of that. And I know you know, as mental health professionals, somebody comes into my office, or used to, and I do my suicide assess risk assessment. And I ask you know “Are you thinking about hurting yourself or anybody else?” And that's the extent of it if the person is coming in with depression.

 

And I think one of the takeaways for me. And I hope that mental health professionals who watch this, our series, is that if somebody's coming in and they're talking about depression and suicide and they're expressing those thoughts and it's in the context, for example, of a relationship breakup. Or it becomes clear that there is some coercive control that's gone on in that relationship, we need to go much further than just talk about “Are you thinking about hurting somebody else?”

 

And I think there are ways we can ask those questions about, you know, when this person's depressed. “Do you ever get so depressed that you just feel like you know it's not worth it?” Or “Do you feel like your child couldn't live without you if something happened?” Or you know maybe it's something along the lines of you know “Do you ever get so angry that you just feel like taking somebody with you?” Or you I mean there's all different kinds of ways.

 

But we need to be, I think, tuned in to the fact that, you know, unlike my training which was like “Okay if the person's suicidal they're never going to hurt anybody else.” We now know that's not the case. That there is, certainly not a perfect link, but there is a relationship between suicide and homicide. And we need to be sure… and the flip side of that is that if I'm somebody who's working in a domestic violence situation, or a coercive control situation, I need to be aware that if a you know a perpetrator, or an abuser, is depressed or making threats to kill himself, that that is a risk factor for murder-suicide, not just for suicide. Right?

 

Jacque: Exactly. It's so funny you say that. I was, you know, as you made the bullet points for today and I was reading through, those that definitely came up for me was: What can we do differently as practitioners, or even as family members, to recognize the risk factors? What are the red flags? What are the trigger words? What's the checklist? You know this person has a history of domestic violent acts, coercive control, maybe narcissistic personality. They have even intermittent substance use disorder. They have a history of maybe depression. They've talked about suicide ideation. Okay maybe it's check, check, check: Two of the five. And they're at risk right?

 

I think to take it one step further, I'm not sure we would know what to do with them. So right? And even in a typical Baker Act, maybe they would be hospitalized for a few days 24, 36, maybe 72 hours and then they're back out. So I think at some point moving forward, as well, in addition to that, those red flag triggers or whatever it is. We talk about how do we treat? And what do we do And what kind of maybe boundaries do we put in place? And is there a restraining order and how like what is the next step?

 

And I think you know. We're stepping into sort of a big can of worms here. Because I don't know that we have enough trends to know, even, what to do.

 

I also know that it's going to be important to get the people that have the information, like family members, to step up and speak out and not be afraid to tell on their family member. Or keep secrets. That was another trend we saw, or we heard: is yeah no one talked about it in public. I didn't go… like for me for instance, after I separated from my partner, it was really rocky and although, there was just a lot of underlying underpinning coercive control, and manipulative types of behaviors, and things to sort of get back at me. and we had had a murder-suicide in our community just months prior. And I said to one of my friends, it hit me out of nowhere. And I said "You don't think she would do that do you?"

 

This was like two months before my ex committed the act. And so, the person I was with said "Oh gosh no. No, we're not… No. You know. I don't think that could ever happen." But the fact that I had that intuition, or the wherewithal to even think that, my message is if you think that then something inside of you is telling you that that's real.

 

So what's the worst that can happen? You're wrong. Okay. So you're wrong. But it could save lives.

 

Joni: That is such a powerful comment that you made. Because one of the things that we talked about, and thank you for sharing that Jacque, because you didn't even share that in you know in telling your story a few weeks ago right? Because one of the things we talked about before is the fact that there, you know, everybody, well a lot, several people talked about just being absolutely stunned when they found out what happened. I mean, just completely stunned. And yet some of our guests said “I had no idea this would ever happen. And yet, the minute I found out there had been these murders immediately I knew what had happened.”

 

Jacque: That it was… Yeah their person.

 

Joni: Yeah I knew it was this person had done it. And it's like how do we make sense of that? And you just gave an amazing example of on some level there was a part of you that was scared. That was worried. That saw this as a possibility. And of course I would imagine anybody would be like "Oh Jacque, no. Of course that would never happen." because we think it would never happen to us or anybody that we know or care about.

 

Jacque: Right. And the fact that I… it wasn't that wasn't the only time that I kind of got that “mmm” because there was one time where she said, "Hey I want to take both of the kids you know for several weeks to the summer to a different state to see the family or whatever by herself." And I immediately I was like "No."

 

Because somewhere in there I felt like this was sort of some planned scheme, right, of hers. To take them away from me somehow some way. And it did cross my mind, you know, her driving into the water or whatever as a way to sort of get back at me. And so it was more than once.

 

And so one of the things that… and I had premonitions too about my daughter passing away. Prior to that. I just, I had these premonitions. I didn't know what to do with all of that. I thought people would think I was crazy. And it wasn't because of anything that she said or did directly up towards them. It was just this gut thing, and we ignore that way too much and I think we would hear that from some of our guests too that came on.

 

Joni: I think so too. And I think that your question about what do we do? So let's say that we take this seriously and we think okay this could happen You're right. What do we do? The question is what do we do with this person? And it maybe we can't do anything with this person necessarily. It may become what do we do to protect ourselves.

 

Jacque: Exactly.

 

Joni: And as you pointed out if it's not true, if it's not going to happen, if whatever it is, that's the worst-case scenario. That we're taking extra precautions because we're concerned about it. I mean I think anybody that we've ever had on this podcast anybody we'd ever talked to would be like I will trade that. I will trade that possibility for the other possibility, that I ignore this voice, I ignore this concern and something horrible happens.

 

Jacque: Right. And what just came into my mind was: Okay, so you know we had separated. She had lost her job she kind of was without she was experiencing all of this loss and essentially that, plus you know prescription medications and mental health, and the coercive control personality stuff…. like that's our that's our plus-plus-plus-plus-equals. I the only the only thing that I think would have happened is she probably would have taken her own life. But had I had I taken the control back and not allowed her to see the kids I would have dealt with backlash. I would have had to go to court. I would have had to do all of these things. My daughter might still be here.

 

So yeah it's hard. And what if I'm wrong. And what if they still kill themselves. Okay but you're maybe protecting another person from taking them with them. And then there's like weapons and things like that. You know safeguarding maybe the person. Taking away their means to hurt themselves or someone else. But you know what? Then there's La Toya.

 

I don't know that she really had that that thought, right? I don't know that she had the plus-plus-plus.

 

Joni: Yeah I don't I don't think necessarily.. I mean I think it's again when we talk about risk factors and I mean we know a couple of things. I think we know at this point that it's not inevitable. That there are situations where people have thought about it and it didn't happen. There's been some intervention. So I think this myth that murder-suicide is inevitable in certain situations, I don't think it's true. It doesn't mean though I think that everybody's going to pick up on something. Everybody's gonna have some you know foreshadowing or some warning signs or whatever. And if you don't you miss something.

 

Because I think there are situations, and I know in the situation with La Toya, I think the fact that it was her father may have been something that you know she wasn't around her father as much. And I think fathers and daughters, well fathers and children, parents and children have a different relationship. So I can see in a way how it might be you know different or more difficult in some situations to pick up on those warning signs because you're still seeing your parent as you know your hero or whatever. You're not thinking along those lines.

 

Now I know Mitch with his dad. I mean this was his dad. You know he did say if I'm remembering correctly that he never ever thought his dad would do that. And yet he was one of the ones who said when he found out that there had been you know these deaths he immediately thought his dad had killed his mom.

 

Jacque: Right. So somewhere inside… And so I think part of this thinking about how do we how do we find it? How do we see it? How do we talk about it? And how do we treat it? Is teaching people maybe how to listen to that. That instinct or whatever. But I think also people who are feeling suicidal or have had these thoughts I think the last thing someone wants to do is say "I've had thoughts about hurting myself and someone else or taking this person with me because I'm angry and that scares me." I don't know that I've ever heard that in 25 years.

 

Joni: I think it's difficult to talk about that I do. But I have to say, and it's been a while since I've been a clinical psychologist, as opposed to a forensic psychologist. But I have definitely heard people talk about those thoughts of you know hurting somebody else. Or fantasies of hurting somebody else. And I think it's hard to… I think part of the problem, still, is that a lot of people feel like “If I go somewhere and talk about these thoughts I'm having, or these urges, I'm going to be put away. I'm going to be right arrested. I'm going to be whatever.”

 

There's a lot of fantasies about that. And I think we need to create a safe space for somebody to be able to talk about things because right we all know that when things are locked inside, and we can't talk about them. It's like they fester and grow. And we take them out and the light can shine on them I think then we are able to see things a little bit more clearly. But I think a lot of times you know there isn't that kind of permission to talk about things, you know? Because let's be I mean thoughts have never hurt anybody. Fantasy has never hurt anybody. It's the actions you know

 

Which kind of brings me to another thing that I wanted to get your input on Jacque because I know you've not only experienced this, but you work with people who've experience this. There's a concept that I come across a lot, in kind of workplace violence assessment or threat assessment. Which is kind of this last resort behaviors. Looking for the last thing. The last straw almost in a way. I mean,

 

I when I say last straw, I don't want to mean that somebody snaps. Because I think one of the myths about murder-suicide is that a person snaps. And I don't think that's the case I think it's oftentimes it's planned out, on some level over time. It's been… the person's been thinking about it for a period of time. But there is this idea of kind of this last resort. And I'm wondering if you see any application? Because it's one thing to talk about risk factors, like if there's you know an ongoing domestic violence situation, or coercive control, or there's you know alcohol or drugs involved, or you know some of the things that we're talking about.

 

Are there things that you've seen working with your clients or that you noticed looking back that were almost like that last resort? The person became so desperate. Or this happened. Or this person said this? That would kind of be like almost like the last flag?

 

Jacque: I mean often times it's threats made aloud. You know “If you leave me, I'll kill you.” and the person may not believe it. Or if you, I think… we have to pay attention more to what people say. Because I think there are subtle clues. And we poo-poo it. “That'll never happen. They'll never do that. Oh you're just talking.”

 

I think even La Toya said that because he mentioned ‘oh I’ll just go jump off a bridge’ and then he “hahaha”, joked about it. Those things we need to take those things more seriously and say “Now wait a minute.” So I think often times we just don't want to hear it. So I do think that there's that last that last thing.

 

It's so funny I would say probably a good six or eight months prior you know to my own trauma too. We were watching a show that we regularly watched and it was sort of like a dramatic true crime kind of thing. And my ex actually said to me something about “Well if something were… if something were going to happen and somebody else was going to take our kids or whatever would you just take their life knowing they wouldn't have to go live you know and be living with someone else?” And I was like “No.” like why and so there are subtle hints. There are subtle clues I know I ignored for a long time. So there's that.

 

I, you know, and again, I think I said this when I was sharing my story like my ex actually told her family she was having these thoughts. And I didn't know that until after the fact. So I believe we need to pay more attention.

 

Joni: I do too. And I also think what you said is so kind of resonates with me and looking more at just the homicide literature, like not looking at murder-suicide, but I think there's a complete parallel there. And that is often times you'll see in interpersonal homicide it's like when the person finally realizes this person isn't coming back, or it's a custody issue and there's been this battle and the person's now realizing finally that they're going to lose custody, or it's like this this last… this awareness. You know I remember a case where this this man was, you know, they had been this kind of ongoing off and on again relationship and really it was just the woman was trying her in her best possible way to let this person down easily. Which was not the best thing to do. It was the kindest thing to do but it certainly wasn't the best thing for her at all. Because she really didn't want to be with this person. And so she met with him a couple of different times. And it was only when and nothing happened. This person was sweet, kind, but it was only when this person finally realized that he wasn't going to get her back…

 

And I remember when we had Dustin on the show and he was talking about his sister and how her ex had literally lured her by saying "I owe you this money for rent. You've been paying for this house would you come over?” And you know and then it was then that he you know ended her life and ended his. It was like this this finality that he realizes that she's moved on.

 

Jacque: And I think that does happen a lot in relationships when there's a murder-suicide in a relationship. or just a murder or homicide in a relationship. Because that person realizes and that was my case too. You know? There was a realization this is this is done. You know? This is over. And I think that definitely is a huge risk factor.

 

I'm curious from a forensic place. I know you said you haven't practiced in a long time. But did you did you hear people who maybe had these tendencies? And I don't know if you would I don't know how you would diagnose that as psychopathy, or sociopathy, or how you know… cuz I'm not familiar with that field of study. But do you believe that those traits are also found in these people who are committing murder-suicide?

 

So in other words somebody who's going to you know kill somebody else but not kill themselves versus the murder-suicide part.

 

Joni: I think that's a good question. And I actually have heard more stories about this in a forensic setting, which I am very actively practicing. So, the clinical part of it has been a while but I definitely, you know, I interview, you know, inmates all the time as part of risk assessment and those kinds of things. And so I've definitely heard a lot of different stories of you know leading up to a murder.

 

And I think that what I would say is that the biggest differentiator that I see, between for example interpersonal homicide - somebody who just kills their girlfriend, or their spouse, or their husband, or boyfriend, or whatever and somebody who commits murder-suicide is this depressive component. This depression. And I think because…

 

Jacque: Not a random murder. We're not talking about random.

 

Joni: Yeah, we're talking about… Yeah we're talking about domestic violence homicide. You know interpersonal homicide. I just killed my spouse. I just killed my boyfriend or girlfriend. Or I killed my boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, spouse whatever and myself is more the depression part piece of it.

 

I think you could have some of the same personality characteristics. You can have some the same personality traits in both. Because I think there is a certain amount, I mean when you think about it, I think often times this is going to sound maybe odd, but there seems to be this unhealthy dependency oftentimes. And there's a certain almost narcissism in a negative way. This person thinks “I can't live without this person and this person doesn't have the right to leave me in” a way.

 

Jacque: So my heart just dropped because for me that's completely 100% accurate for my ex. 110% accurate. Totally.

 

Joni: I've seen that. And you know I'm not saying that you can't find psychopathy. You can find probably whatever you're looking for depending upon who you're evaluating. But I do see often times like I said this this this unhealthy attachment or dependency and along with that this kind of like I said this kind of narcissism where, you know I need you so much, I'm so dependent on you in some way, that you don't have the right to you know to leave me. or be a dare or be a separate person from me. Yeah. Exactly

 

Jacque: Right. Right. That it's almost enmeshment. Yeah. Interesting. I'd like to talk about that more at some point Yeah.

 

Joni: Yeah I feel like we just really started I mean there's so many things to talk about. And one of my regrets about this series is that we weren't able to find somebody who was comfortable coming on and talking about, you know maybe, having a child who was the murderer. Because I think that person is a victim as well.

 

Jacque: Oh absolutely

 

Joni: And it kind of breaks my heart in a way. B=Because I think there's so much shame oftentimes attached. And guilt attached to that. And yet, I think to be able to provide that perspective would be so invaluable. In terms of…

 

Jacque: Thinking especially if it's a child of theirs. An adult child even. you know if they have committed a heinous crime. Yeah. Somehow they think it's their fault.

 

Joni: Yeah. And I think there is so much. It's so sad to me that you know the one person's crime in a family can just spill over like hot grease onto the rest of the family who had nothing to do with it the other thing. That I definitely want to talk about. And I know this is something that really hits home for you because you've said this is just the impact on children who have lost a parent or lost a sibling. And what would you as a parent and a survivor recommend for children? What do you see? What have you what have you seen? How would you how do you help that child navigate the world after this? Talk to them? I mean it's mindboggling to me.

 

Jacque: Yeah. So, I mean I have my own experience. We also heard Connie talk about her children and how they were impacted by the loss of their dad and their uncle. Who they you know both admired for different reasons. But then there's sort of… so my son was 10 when the attempt was made to take his life. And you know, the fact that he was there and pulled my daughter out of the tub. And you know, lost not only a parent, but her entire side of the family. I mean her and I were together 20 years. He was 10. He knew nothing but us and our families. And so he lost that entire side of the family in just a series of hours. You know, when you're a child and you experience something so tragic, that just kind of rips your whole life apart. And one day you're normal and doing these things and the next day it's completely different.

 

And so I guess as a parent who lost a child, who's raising a child who experienced the trauma as well, as you can imagine that dynamic has been very much a strain. You know, in the beginning I was lucky enough to have people who were there for me. That helped me kind of take care of him so that I could go take care of myself. But over the years, even to this day, when I see him for me there's that connection to the crime, and what happened, and the guilt that I face about not being able to protect him or my other child. And then leaving him in a situation that, you know, was dangerous of course I didn't know but leaving him in that situation. And then trying to parent him, and raise him while, and be a parent while understanding, especially, because I'm a therapist, but understanding the trauma piece.

 

And so, it's a lot to sort of separate, I guess. And so I think it's really important for people who are experiencing this, and they still have children to raise, to just get support. Find support. Use your community. Go to therapy. You know, whatever it takes. Like, it takes a village. you know for me it was my pastor. It was my friends. It was my family. It was his teachers. It was guidance counselors.

 

Like I just really relied on my community and leaned heavily on them until I could get my feet under me. And even now you know when I have those moments I just I allow myself to break you know for however long. And then I kind of put myself back together. But I have people that I can rely on. I don't know. If you don't have that kind of support system, I say “Seek it out.” You know find it. If through victim services. Or support groups. Or kind of like the support group here. But find your people because it's not something we can do alone.

 

And these kids that have experienced this deserve us to be present, and they deserve… they deserve the help too. So it's definitely it's a challenge. It's a day-by-day situation.

 

Joni: I can't. I can't even imagine. I was going to say “I can only imagine”, but I can't even imagine. One of the things Connie said that really resonated with me and I would think with children would be something that could really help parents who've had a child go through an experience or a part of a family is you know, she talked about you have to pick your why. And my interpretation of that which may or may not be accurate from what she's talking about is almost like “We're never gonna really know exactly why this person made this decision. What we can do is help our child figure out a why that's not about him or her.”

 

And because we all know children even, I think adult children, our parents do stuff. It's like but especially as you know younger children it's always about them. You know that's just being a child. It's if I you know if my parent acts weird I've done something wrong I mean there's just that natural sense that children take off that stuff.

 

Jaque: Exactly. Why me?

 

Joni: What did I do? Why did my mom or dad do this? Or why did they…? And so I think that would be something that I mean would be an ongoing process. And I would imagine at different ages would need to have to be revisited and all that. But helping that child figure out, or even as a family, right deciding that the Why we're going to decide upon, since we don't know is going to be empowering for us.

 

Jacque: Yeah I think just encouraging the child to like to give them the power back. To explore that. Let them have their anger in an appropriate way. For me it has been I shielded him from… because she's in prison for life. So I shielded him when he was younger. And he said, “I want to see her.” He was very angry. And I said, “When you're 18 if you still want to see her then that is up to you.”

 

Once he reached 18 he went through phases where he said, "I want to see her." And then he said, "What's the point?" And now he's kind of accepted the fact that it's not going to change anything. But I think children need to… we need to give them the space to come up with their own Why. And their own finding purpose. And I think that takes a very long time.

 

I think Connie mentioned that her son actually was talking about helping people, working in the field, right, of mental health and behavioral health. And I maybe that's his why. And then her daughter is very much kind of the opposite right now. But she's younger. My son does not want his life to be, at least at this point, does not want his life to be defined by what happened to him. And so I keep saying you know because he's in the arts, and I said “Use your use your trauma. Use your experiences in the arts. You know, people need to hear your story. It's going to really save someone's life.”

 

And, you know, for him that's not what he wants his life to be about. And so I just have to respect that. And it's hard. Because I feel like he's experiencing denial, and lack of acceptance. But it's his journey.

 

Joni: And it is. And, you know, I told Connie this, I know during the podcast, but I think you know giving children that space to have their experience, and make those choices, and knowing they may change their mind, they may not change their mind. But that's I think one of the biggest gifts as parents we can give anyway.

 

So I know that I want to talk about the Murder-Suicide Loss Network. But I do want to bring up one more thing before we start wrapping things up, and that is the fact that we did see a couple of experts who had law enforcement backgrounds in their families, right? I just felt like that's something it may just be that our experts just happen to have that background. But I know in doing some reading on this topic, and preparing for this episode, there certainly is statistically a greater prevalence of domestic violence, and interpersonal homicide, as well as murder-suicide in certain occupations, including law enforcement. And so, I think the reason I want to bring that up is because we did have two of our experts had that in their background. And the fact that when Bruce came on talking about how that can impact the aftermath, and the investigation… and we haven't spent a lot of time in the series talking about that part of the journey. The immediate aftermath of that.

 

And so what was that like for you Jacque? In terms of not obviously the law enforcement piece of it but just the immediate aftermath and investigation if there was one? And how you felt you were treated? and all those things.

 

Jacque: Well the system's definitely not set up to, I think, help the victims. There is a victim advocate that's assigned when things are, you know right, after they happen. And of course that's federal funding and we don't know what's going to happen with that with that right now. But there are things in place to help the victim. But in terms of like in my case I spent four years going through the court process because we were headed towards trial and the death penalty that was determined by the state of Florida. So the victim really doesn't have a lot of, I guess, rights. And that's something that I was a part of sort of helping to change at least initially. There is something now called Marcy's law in Florida where victims have certain you know rights. And I wasn't the one that put that bill forward but I definitely supported it early on. But I think you know in the beginning really it's just a matter of survival.

 

So the media you know in certain cases you're being just washed over with the news. And the newspapers. And you feel like everyone around you knows everything about you and you feel naked and you feel vulnerable. But then you're dealing with you know the corner. And how are you going to take care of the services? And what… you know, who are we going to invite? And you know so the first month or so is just around like just getting through all that. And then once the people start to kind of go away and reality sets in, I think is really the hard part.

 

And I would say you know the first year is sort of like the new normal. Just getting used to that. And then I had people tell me "Oh the first year is hard but the second year is harder." And I believe that. I believe that year two is even harder because there's like this acceptance that starts to set in. And with that comes the fear I think of forgetting. You know? Your loved one.

 

In my case like I had four years of court so every time I went to court I had to face her and the story all over again. So my healing process took much longer. But for people who don't have to deal with that they can they can you know get on the way of healing. But it is definitely life-altering. Turns just… it's like taking a puzzle that's you've been you spent your life sort of putting together and you're getting this clear picture of what you think it's going to be and it's pretty and somebody comes in and just you know messes it up and tosses all the pieces all over the place. And you know, to be honest, some of those pieces are never found.

 

And so you know I have maybe a piece from a different puzzle that kind of fits. But it doesn't really go. But there are pieces that definitely just aren't put back. But I think the beauty in that is I think there's some saying I think the Japanese I can't remember the name of it but “When a bowl breaks they don't throw it away. They glue it back together with gold. And they treasure it. And it's this beautiful piece of art.”

 

And so, I think that we just need to kind of remember that when we feel so broken that it's irreparable, it's not.

 

We just have to find the glue. Give it time to set and dry. And you know then we can sort of come back and say you know what you know it's that's not such an bad piece of art. So that's kind of how I try to look at it sometimes when I'm having a hard time.

 

Joni: I love that. I really do.

 

Tell me about your experience with the Murder-Suicide Loss Network. And what your thoughts are about that for anybody who's gone through a similar experience.

 

Jacque: I've heard this a lot that people who experience murder-suicide they go online they Google “murder-suicide” and there's not a whole lot that comes up except for more crimes or crimes that have happened maybe in your area. And it took me a good nine years, nine and a half years, I guess to find the Murder-Suicide Loss Network. And I think they've been around for 5 years, Mitch said, now. So the Murder Suicide Loss Network.org. And we'll post all that stuff at the end here. Is a is an online support group and it's twice a month and you know they just take your information, you can go online put your information in there, and they will call you back. And they just talk to people.

 

When Mitch said "Oh we interview people before they come in." I thought "What do you mean interview people?" You know I was all nervous. And why do you have to interview me? Like you want to hear my story before my story? What is the… I felt weird about it. And now I can appreciate it because they want to create a safe space for people to come in and they want to make sure that you're ready.

 

And, because sometimes in the beginning, we think we're ready but then hearing other people's stories is so overwhelming and so triggering that it can, you know, kind of throw you backwards in your in your healing in your recovery process. So that's kind of how they do things. It has been really good for me. There are days there are times I don't want to go to support group because I just don't want to dig that back up I'm in a good space and I just don't feel like it. And that's okay too. You can come when you feel like it. You don't have to come when you don't feel like it. But it's been the first thing in 10 years that I have found that I really feel like people understand what I've been through. And I don't have to explain it.

 

Joni: Yeah I can't think of anything that would be more healing than being with people who truly can, even though their experience is unique in their own life, they truly can say "I understand what you're going through. We've gone through something that few people will ever go through.” And that must be… I can just see how that must feel so supportive.

 

Jacque: It does. It makes us feel a little normal, I guess, as much as we can. Because when I do tell my story out in public it's this “Oh my gosh I cannot imagine. I can't imagine going through that. I'm so sorry.” And it's like this they're just aghast, you know? And we don't experience that in the group.

 

It's like “I get it. I understand. It's okay that you feel this way.” you know

 

Joni: Well we've talked about our experts that have come on for the past eight weeks and you have been our resident expert as a co-host is somebody with a lived experience. So I think it's only fitting that you kind of wrap things up for us So if there's… I guess if there's is there any final word Jacque that you think would be important to say before…?

 

Jacque: Yeah, you know, we didn't get to talk in depth about the officers and the law enforcement and the domestic violence around that. But our guest, Bruce, did go into that. And so just I would encourage you, if you're watching this and you missed one of the stories, to go back and watch Bruce's podcast where he talks about the IODV I think it was the IODV. It it's an organization that has you know is basically, or series of policies that are put in place to sort of find domestic violence maybe personalities or histories or things like that in law enforcement. So that they can kind of catch it before it happens.

 

So I guess to wrap up, I hope that everyone has an opportunity to go and listen to the rest of the stories. And if you're interested in telling your story and/or you want to share or you have questions, definitely you can reach out to us and our information will be posted I assume Joni?

 

Joni: Yeah. And it will.