Joni: Welcome to the Final Act. I'm Dr Joni Johnson a forensic psychologist and private investigator. I also bring some of a personal experience to this topic, to some extent, that I have suicide in my family. So this is a topic that's very personal and very important to me. And I'm also very, very happy to have my co-host join me Jacqueline Jameson who's been a mental health professional for the past 25 years, and 10 years ago lost her daughter to murder-suicide. Great to see you again Jacque

 

Jacque: As always you too Joni. It's great to be here and it seems like we just did this, but that's great. I think the more stories we have, and the more experts we have on, really gives us a lot of insight into just the layers and layers of complexities around murder-suicide.

 

Joni: That is so true. I mean I find myself you know every time we're recording looking to see how many people have been lost since we last spoke, and it's just breaks my heart you know whenever I see cases involving families and, especially, when children are lost. That is I think particularly difficult the other thing that you mentioned some of the layers that we're uncovering and discovering as we go through this podcast series, and today's guest I think brings a very interesting complexity. In that it involves law enforcement. And the fact that not only was the victim a law enforcement officer, Sheriff, but the perpetrator was a law enforcement officer. And I can only imagine how much that might complicate things.

 

Jacque: Oh 100%. You know I don't know that it's much different from anybody else who maybe is seen as a protector or a helper. Even in my instance, really. You know I'm a licensed professional, and my ex who, was my perpetrator, was also a licensed mental health professional. So I think when you are in, when we are in these roles, and when people see us in these roles it's almost sort of a gas to think how could this have happened? You know weren't there signs? how come nobody stopped it? why didn't they tell anyone? they should have known. You know so there are a lot of questions here that sometimes get left unanswered. But there's also a lot of stigma so I think, at least in my case. And I guess we'll find out here too. We don't speak up sometimes because of stigma.

 

Joni: And I think that applies not only in terms of people who are concerned about a loved one, but I think oftentimes the people who wind up becoming perpetrators. Because I know in talking to several friends of mine who were in law enforcement, what a challenge it is for them to ask for help if they are struggling with anything. Because there is that stigma around getting help if you're in law enforcement. And also just there fear that if I talk about this or talk about my feelings, my guns going to be taken away. Or I'm going to be given a desk job or put on leave and so I think there's that part of it as well.

 

Jacque: Yeah absolutely. I have family members who are both in law enforcement and who provide services to law enforcement and they do live in that fear for sure. Asking for help and what will happen. What would the outcome of that be.

 

Joni: And I think that you know I think that progress has been made. There's been a lot of efforts I know to you know I think more and more police agencies or organizations are having psychologists that are on staff. I have a couple of friends who actually do that. But I think it's still I think a challenge. And I do think there is that fear. And I think often, not I don't say oftentimes, I think sometimes there is perceived lack of trust that even if even if my you know Commander or Lieutenant is saying “If you need help get help.” I'm not sure I trust that in terms of what that's going to mean for me and my career.

 

Jacque: Sure and I think this is maybe a message that needs to go out more broadly at some point so maybe that's something we can talk about in the future too is you know the training aspect the education the awareness to those people. The people that make the decisions about people who are struggling. And you know what the stigma. And have those conversations in person with those people.

 

Joni: I agree and also you know if there's a stigma around getting help, I would imagine there is a certainly a stigma if you're worried about somebody. That's your partner, or you're seeing things that are concerning. I'm sure that would be somewhat inhibiting as well, to try to get that person help. Or go to your supervisor and say “I'm like worried about Joe.”  “I'm worried about Joanne.” or whatever. “I'm concerned about some of the things that he or she is saying.”

 

Jacque: Right, right. Well I'm really looking forward to hearing more from our expert here

 

Joni: yeah let's get let's get Bruce on he's the star of our show, as always. And I know he's gonna have really have a lot to share with

Us. Hi Bruce.

 

Bruce: Hello Joni. How are you?

 

Joni: I'm good. Welcome to the show we're so happy that you agreed to come on and share your story with us. Why don't you start out, before we talk about your story, you know tell us a little bit about you- your background, what you did for a living those kinds of things.

 

Bruce: I'm a former commercial real estate construction manager. I worked for a succession of real estate developers and a private consultancy in the Washington DC area, where it was based, anyway. I worked nationally for a career an entire career had an undergraduate degree in political science that suited me and prepared me not at all for a career in commercial construction. Along the I path married my wife Sarah, whom I met at American University, in Washington DC. We had three kids in the DC area, raised them all. Decided I should get a law degree on the way, so while working full-time by day, went at night for four years. I practiced law for two and a half years in the real estate sector and got recruited back in to the “bricks and sticks” as we call it, world of commercial real estate and construction. And now I'm retired.

 

Joni: And so, I know we're here today talking mainly about Abby, your daughter. So, maybe take us through your journey. Through what happened with her.

​

Bruce: Abby, our youngest of three, two older brothers, graduated from the University of Maryland. Decided to join the same police force her older, and oldest, brother was then serving in. The Montgomery County Police Department in outside of Maryland. And in the course of applying was rejected because she ate one half of a marijuana laced cookie in Colorado, where it was legal, some year and a half, I think it was or so before applying. Called me and said, “Hey Dad what should I do here?” and I said, “You got to tell him if it comes up 10 years later you could lose your career and pension and all that stuff. So you have to be honest.” and that dinged her and kept her from joining the Montgomery County Police Department. So she moved to Florida on her own, knowing nobody, up and left. And put down roots and got a job in a law firm. And applied to a local police agency see the Hillsburg County Sheriff's Office. Which would have her after only I think it was 2 years between the consumption of the half a cookie. And became a deputy with the Hillsburg County Sheriff's Office. And had served four years at the time that she had met a guy on a call, another Hillsburg County Sheriff's Office Deputy, named Dan Laden, who she started a romantic relationship with. That never firmly took root. There was always an unease about it from Abby's side. And, I should say, we're a very close family and she shared everything. And was incredibly tight with her brothers, with me, and in particular my wife, her mother Sarah. And we all knew that it was not likely to go on and mature into anything long term. And they went away on a long weekend vacation with two other deputy couples. And he, she planned to break up with him on that trip. And he wasn't having that. And instead shot her and killed her, and then himself on that trip. And that started my journey into the whole learning about the cycles of officer involved domestic violence, sometimes called police-perpetrated domestic violence, to be more accurate.

 

And the lying the subterfuge, the gaslighting, the obfuscation, and the nonsense that police agencies resort to rather than face what's painfully obvious and right in front of them and has been going on forever. And you know I'm on a bit of a campaign to educate and reform the policies that that govern the manner by which law enforcement officers in particular are judged and held to account, or not held to account, as the case may be, for their crimes and their trespasses. And there's a huge gaping hole in awareness and in treatment for the criminality of these police officers.

 

Joni: So when did you become first aware that Abby had met Leden? And that she had started seeing him?

 

Bruce: That's a good question. It was about, and the whole relationship was seven or eight months. So it didn't go on for that long. So if you back seven or eight months off of January then you know within weeks that's when I first would of 2022. January of 2022 is when she was killed. So that's when we would have first learned, and we met him. He came to the house many times. The house I'm sitting in now. Swam in the pool that's just a few feet from me. Went to multiple dinners. And even we took him on a vacation to we have happen happened to be lucky enough to have a cabin in the woods in New Hampshire we flew him and Abby up, there my wife and I in November of 21. And we were thanked by his murdering her, just months later.

 

 so we knew of him from the inception, fairly close to it anyway. And [he was a] charming guy. Sense of humor, intelligent. The you know a guy that none of us detected any anything a mess with. And her brothers are just natural empathic and intuitive detectives, and you know good with good heads on their shoulders and solid cores, and ethics. And I think barometers for human personality types. And you know that's their job they're both cops. I don't I didn't mention that. And it's you know their livelihood depends on them having good powers of perception. And being able to read people. And we all misread him. And frankly so did his agency, because if they come back from the trip that neither of them came back from the very next workday he was starting work as a homicide detective. A fact which I think demonstrates the extent to which, and the degree to which, part particularly manipulative, and intelligent, high functioning predators like him can just fool everybody. And I suppose in the telling of the story, that you'll sus out of me, you'll find out that in fact he hadn't fooled them. Because they had knowledge of his prior bad acts. His prior domestic violence predilections.

 

Joni: Yeah I really want to talk about that. Because I can't imagine here you've just have received the shock of your life, that your daughter, your precious baby of the family. And know you had such a special bond with her and relationship. She's been taken away from you. By somebody that you never even dreamed would do something like that. And then you and I have talked before about the fact that you then start finding out some things that are just horrendous. So maybe you can share some that with us Bruce. And just it must have been like salt being poured on the wound.

 

Bruce: Oh very much so. It was just days, two days, after Abby was killed. She was killed in St Augustine which is approximately a three hour or so drive from where I am outside of Tampa. And the Sheriff's Office saw fit to engage and organize a motorcade, a cross-state motorcade, that was a whole bunch of motorcycles and police cars and sirens and shut down roads. And there was a lot of solemnity and dignity attending to the whole thing. All the way up to St Augustine and back. And my two sons participated in it. my one son in particular Daniel the older boy, had many years as a firefighter and an EMT. And had you know taken many bodies to many morgues over the course of his career. And he had in his head this very disturbing vision that Abby was lying in a morgue. His beloved sister, probably within feet of the guy that killed her. And it so irritated and galled him that he wanted to get her away from that that guy as quickly as he could. And so they went in this motorcade.

 

And my wife and I saw the motorcade off very early one morning and we'd been shepherded over to its departure point by a sheriff's deputy, whom we didn't know. And all of this happened seven months after my wife and I had come to Florida to retire. So we had just barely gotten our feet under us with finding a house, and all that when this happened. So we hadn't met all of Abby's friends or any I think one of them. And, so as this motorcade left, a deputy came up to us, was introduced to us. And I don't know what possess me to ask him, but I asked him if he knew Dan Laden the guy that killed Abby and he said he did. And his reaction was sort of palpably negative. He was putting off vibes that this was a guy clearly, other than the fact that he just killed one of his fellow deputies, I had the sense there was more there. And I gestured to the sergeant who' driven us and my wife would be right with him we get back in the car to drive home. And I wanted to talk to this guy alone. And he unburdened himself very readily. And said that he had in fact responded to a domestic violence call where Dan Laden was the subject. And after an initial confusing formulation of the way he put it the information out, I came to understand “Wait a minute, wait a minute. You're saying this guy exhibited domestic violence behavior to the extent to the point that it generated a police call from his own agency, no less?” Which is to me I you know, I'm not a cop, I never was a cop. But it struck me as a particularly telling indication that this is a person if he can't control his own affairs, how and why would we expect him to be able to control the affairs of others? And carry a badge and a gun that can take people's liberty, let alone lives away in doing so. It just struck me as it should  be the last thing you'd want to do, to call your own agency and say “Hey I need help.” You know, you're supposed to be the one who helps. And yet indeed he, this deputy, did confirm that is what happened. He was the subject. It was a DV call. He believed he should have been fired after this call. He said he never talked to the guy again. And it totally changed my… I knew how obviously we'd all been stricken. But this blow from out of the blue, our daughter was just wiped off the face of the Earth. And now this was a secondary jolt. It was like “Oh crap. This didn't have to happen. Somebody, knew.” and I didn't know who knew. And I didn't know why you know I didn't have the who, what, when where, why of it. I just knew this guy struck me as authentic, believable, credible. And it hit me in my heart, in my head, in my soul, that this was avoidable. This should have been stopped.

 

 and now I'm three years and a month or two after and nothing I have learned, nothing, has swayed me from that initial lightning bolt conclusion that it didn't have to happen. It was avoidable. I do now know, and I can put meat on the bones of how and why I know it didn't have to happen. I've learned about best practices. I've learned about policy, procedures. I've learned about the process the phenomenon that is domestic violence. And particularly the, you know, the more pernicious form if, it can be more pernicious, of Officer involved police-perpetrated domestic violence. I know if the right policies and protocols have been implemented. And followed the right training had been administered. It wouldn't have happened. And I've checked that thinking that conclusion with the nation's preeminent experts. From prosecutors to forensic psychologists, to other law enforcement types, to trainers, to domestic violence consultants, and writers. And they all agree. I'm this sad grieving father and there's a temptation to say “Yes, Mr. Bieber, of course. You know, you're right. It shouldn't happen.”

 

No young woman in the prime of her life should be struck down. Ever. We can all stipulate to that obviously. And I said to them, each of those experts “I am going to start getting sort of loud about this. Because it's the only reasonable, and positive response that I can come up with to such a tragic loss and death is to apply what should have been learned, and could have been learned, so that somebody else doesn't suffer the same fate.

 

That's not brave. That's not bold. That's not particularly anything. I don't it's just the only way to make sense of it, and to me and I just know it is so, it is the case, that somebody else is going to die because they don't listen, because they don't learn, because they won't open their eyes. And the how and the whys of that are an interesting inquiry as well. I don't know if that's responsive.

 

Jacque: I have some questions. First, thank you so much. I unfortunately know firsthand how difficult it is to talk about, you know, the loss of a child at someone else's hand. Especially somebody that you, I guess, sort of trusted. Or you know didn't think that that they would be capable of doing something like this. So I appreciate you being here and telling your story.

 

I have a question. I have two questions actually. One is what county was it in Florida? Where were they living? You said that they were both officers in Florida.

 

Bruce: Yeah they were working in Hillsboro County Florida. It happened in St John's County. And Abby lived in Panella’s County.

 

Jacque: I was just curious about that for my own frame of reference. And then

​

Bruce: And I'm sorry for your loss too, by the way.

 

Jacque: Thanks Bruce. I appreciate that. Well, we're here talking about these things even though they are very difficult. And I'm somewhat trying to hold it together today because I'm viscerally impacted by your story. So I apologize if I tear a little bit. So you said that you are here now to educate and reform. And look at policies. And I'm just wondering you know which ones have you focused on for yourself to do that around? And where? You know is it in Florida? Is it across the board? What kinds of things are you doing? And we don't have to get too deep into that right now. I was just I wanted to a little bit more information from you on that.

​

Bruce: That's a that's a very good question Jacque. Because when it first happened I was on fire. You know? I just wanted to grab the entirety of the globe and say, you know, shake it by its ears and say “Do you understand? And, by the way, this is so easy.” And then I got a little bit more, I suspect, reasonable. And said “Let's focus on Florida only.” And I vowed to just limit my gambit to Florida thinking “If I could push for positive reform in this state, it's a big state. Little bit backwards right about now. But nonetheless. If I could somehow labor through this, and get it done, get some legislation passed, get a bill passed that would provide for mandatory, and this goes further to your question OIDV.” and I don't want to debate the semantics of what acronym to use, that's the one that is in use, for the most part. So I'll stick with it. So if I could get mandatory OIDV policy adoption. Every law enforcement agency in the state and I believe there's about 273 of them in Florida. 18,000 in the nation. But if I could get all of Florida to have to adopt an OIDV policy. Not a one- size fits-all. Not the OIDV policy. But there are a number of competing policies that have been developed over the years by different entities, agencies.

 

Jacque: What is OIDV?

​

Bruce: Officer-Involved Domestic Violence.

 

It’s the shorthand acronym that most of the DV world, and the law enforcement, world use. To describe abuse perpetrated by law enforce.

 

Jacque: Got you. And so I just want to make sure too. So he had priors.

 

Bruce: He had a prior domestic violence call. He wasn't arrested. He wasn't detained. He wasn't even slapped on the wrist. The only consequence on the record was he was told by his then Corporal to stop dating this woman at the time. The victim. Don't date her any further, any longer. Okay and by the way he met her on a call. Which is a big no not in law enforcement. You don't respond to a traffic crash and go “Oh she's cute, why don't I, you know, take her to dinner?” But that's what he did, because he's a predator. And that's what predators do.

 

Jacque: Understood. Okay. Thank you. Joni, I don't know if you had any follow-up questions to any of that.

 

Joni: About 10!

 

Jacque: I had to write mine down. Because otherwise….  Well I know, I should have done the same thing. Because I just, there were so many different directions I wanted to go in. You know, one being: how aware were other officers? Obviously this one officer who came up to you and essentially said “You know, this is a bad guy. And he's has been a bad guy. And I've never talked to him since this one thing happened.” Was it common knowledge? I mean do people know this guy's dating history? And did he have reputation for anything that people would have known about?

 

Bruce: Very good question. And one I can't fully answer. I can say in the course of my journey, of learning about what happened, I reached out to nearly every single person who had a touch on that particular call. That incident. And as I mentioned, he, himself - I don't think I did mention but he, himself, placed the initial call. When he was having this incident with his then girlfriend. A woman who I can speak her name, because she went public her name's then China Ratner. Now it's China Ratner-Perkins. She's a social media influencer who had dated him. She's the one who he met on the traffic crash. She's the one who suffered untold and awful abuse of all manner at his hands. Managed to get out from under it. By leaving the county actually. And after Abby was killed she saw the news reports. And then came out and put an Instagram video up that's very compelling about what had happened to her with him. And because of that incident report, it names the other deputies who responded when he placed that call. And I reached out to all of them. And I've met some of them personally. And they all told me that what they witnessed that night was very disturbing. That they too agreed that you know he was at a line and something should have been done. So I can, in response to your question, I know at least those people that were there on that call, certainly were aware of his bad behavior.

 

In addition I there was a guy who's now retired. Who' been a 30-year-plus veteran. Hardcore, tough as nails old school goon. They call them goons when you're an old school tough cop. You know they call them it's goonery, and goons, and whatnot. Hey, it's their term. They like being called goons. But they, this guy, I knew he had been his supervisor at a certain point. So he would have knowledge about him. Like you, I wanted to know “Hey, what did you know?” And this guy doesn't know me from Adam, I was frankly shocked he took my call. But a lot of… Abby's death rocked them. That agency. It's a big agency. It's one of the top 10/15 numerically numbers of sworn deputies in the country. For Sheriff's offices. And they were very hurt by it. And even though I didn't know him they all know about what happened to Abby. And so he called me. I remember where I was at the time. And I knew who he was his wife is a current Deputy. His son is a deputy. His father was a deputy. So this is a lifelong Hillsburg County Sheriff's Office Deputy family. You know they bleed that blue. And nonetheless he detested Dan Laden so much, just like that other deputy days after. Where I could just kind of feel it coming off of him. This guy said “Yeah I was a supervisor all right. Never liked the son of a bitch. Didn't trust the son of a bitch.” I told, he said he told somebody else, who was his successive supervisor “Keep an eye on that guy.”

 

So was it well known? I can't gauge. Was it known? Absolutely.

 

You know, so there were some who knew he was, I don't know, I don't know if you'd say he was dangerous/ but that there was something amiss. And I know he was an aggressive, hard charging guy. You know he was on the gun recovery, whatever they call it super-duper-mucho-macho squads, and stuff. He liked that stuff. And he was a big guy. He was a smart guy too you know? he was a fairly cerebral guy. And it was an interesting mix. And but then he was a killer? I certainly had no indication.

 

Jacque: Right. Was there any known substance abuse or mental health disorders that were reported?

​

Bruce: No. None to my knowledge. I will say that after China Ratner's video came out, China told me that eight other women, and told the investigators from St John's County in St Augustine, who investigated the murder, that eight other women had suffered at his hands. Had dated him. Eight.

 

Jacque: I was just gonna say how did how did you find that out? how did she know that?

 

Bruce: She put her Instagram video out and they came out of the woodwork and reached out to her. And that's what the homicide investigator in St John's County told me. And then she later told me that too. I you know like I said I reached out to everybody, including China, with whom… funny I thought I had a sort of positive relationship “Anything you need, Mr Bieber. I’m so sorry. I'll be glad to help.” and then she shut off the faucet. And wouldn't help anymore. And I was like okay because I wanted the names of those women. I wanted to talk to them. And I never got them. But they know who they are. And if they want to reach out to me I'd love to hear from them.

 

Joni: I'm wondering you as you've mentioned before you have three children all of whom have been in law enforcement. Two of them still are in law enforcement. And so your sons certainly are in that culture. In that world. And I'm wondering what kind of sense they made of this whole thing.

 

Bruce: No different than me frankly. They understand the failures and the weaknesses of the system. They don't abide it. They fight against it. One of my son's is going through a medical thing right now, he's a combat veteran, he has some injuries that resurfaced a little bit. And he's getting tended to. And they put him on light duty and he had to do some recruiting stuff. So because he's doing some office work in the recruiting sector he's very, very careful to look for any indicators of any kind of sign, obviously of domestic abuse at all/ and he's in a position now, you know, temporarily anyway where he can have some sway over who comes in the door and who doesn't. And that is a huge area for improvement obviously. And Mark Wynn one of the nation's most celebrated expert on OIDV, will tell you that an agency that puts out an application for employment with them that has one question, or two questions, about domestic violence is not an agency that's doing the best for its citizens, and itself really. It should have 10 or 12 questions about domestic violence. Ask different ways. Coming at it from different angles. To provide those data points that can help an agency weed out the truly bad actors. I can't say I've done an exhaustive study of how many of the 18,000 agencies have 10 or 12 questions and how many have one or two, but I would wage you to say it's pretty safe saying “it's going to be closer to the one or two.” Particularly in a climate of difficult recruiting. As everybody knows right now it's hard to get cops to do this job. It's a thankless job. And not a well-paying job.

 

Joni: what was it what was the policy at the time? I mean what was the kind of standard policy and understanding of if there was a domestic violence call involving an officer, then the response would be, should be what?

 

Bruce: You were zeroing in on the precise problem. That nobody can answer that. At least in a in a in a comprehensive, I think, useful way. There have been woefully few studies, if any, about you know summary of comparative policy adoption. The International Association of chiefs of police, the IACP. One of the biggest conferences and organizations, consolidating law enforcement policy procedure protocol. In 1999 developed a model policy for OIDV. A lot of labor. A lot of energy and effort and resources went into it. It was revised subsequently 2003, just a few years later. And so glad they did it. Not so glad they didn't promote it. They developed this terrific tool. And then they patted themselves, on the back put it on the shelf. And I've spoken to people who are IACP members for decades who never heard of it. Don't know about it. The chief Deputy at Hillsburg County Sheriff's Office, a woman. One their first Chief Deputy. Had Mark Wynn himself speak, and address them on OIDV in one of their facilities. Never heard of it. Never heard of the model policy IACP had developed. I sent it to her.

 

So these things exist, but nobody can tell you how many agencies have adopted them in full or in part. You'll find a couple of academic studies that point to you know 10 or 12 states. Or even cities, or agencies that have them. There's no exhaustive study. And there are those Ruth Mandel is one of the big OIDV, domestic violence advocate. She and her husband, I think it's her husband, David Mandel have a Safe Together Institute. I don't know if you've heard of that. But I heard her on a podcast say, “There's a data desert.” That was her term. Which I happen to like. I think it's a deliberate data desert on this topic. If you if you do a survey, if even just topical survey, of “What is OIDV?” You know, just Google around. And read a few papers, articles. They will all tell you there's no exhaustive sort of authoritative collection of data on it. And I think it's deliberate. Like I said. Because you will eventually end up getting to the point of believing and understanding, I think, and accepting - that there is a male patriarchal domination of the field, of the power, of the information. And to authorize somebody to study this. To allocate funds even the OVW the Office of Volence against Women, a part of the Federal Department of Justice. I don't know that they've even allocated resources to study this. Because it gets stepped on. The sheriff',s you know, the PBA, the unions, the organizations that represent law enforcement, are going to crush any effort to do so. Because if you do it, you have to admit you have a problem. You have to admit it exists. And then you have to maybe delegate, or give up some authority, some control, some power. And at the end of the day that's what all of this abuse, all of this domestic violence, is about, right? Power and control. And as an agency, as a almost as a profession, they jealously guard that power and control. That they alone have the levers of power and control over. And I have a friendly police chief, a major city police chief, former Chief. Goes to the ICP annual convention it was in in Boston last October. And there's a major cities major cities Chiefs Association sub meeting. And he wanted to advocate for OIDV. And maybe get me involved and talking to these guys. And it's mostly guys, but not entirely. And he said they said, you know, “OIDV-what? What is it? never heard of it.” And then he explains it they still don't get it. And that's the lack of awareness. Even amongst the professors. Now I know also… you know how a lot of Republican members of Congress privately say they don't like Trump, but they don't say it publicly? same thing happen happening with the with OIDV and law enforcement. They'll privately tell you “Sure it happens.” but they don't want to say it publicly.

 

Jacque: yeah sorry Bruce. I was gonna actually ask you… I'm going to sidestep the politics, we can talk about that offline. But I am wondering about, you know, we hear sometimes about like corrupt corruption in law enforcement and things like that. And do you have a sense, you know, what is your opinion? Or do you have a sense that that that plays a role in maybe you know the department not getting involved? Or kind of pushing it under the rug?

 

Bruce: Yes and no. Yes it's corrupt but it's ethically and morally corrupt. It's not the kind of corruption the rank, you know monetary type, steal some cash from the drug dealer thing. I'll put it this way, and Mark win deserves a credit, I like the way he frames it. If you have a night shift of cops, let's assume they're all male. And one once a month robs a bank. And one once a month deals methamphetamines. And one beats his wife. It is not hard to see and conceive that the other cops on that shift are going to turn the bank robber and the meth dealer in. They're far more loath and less quick to turn in the wife beater, who the woman who shows up at the monthly pizza party with a black eye again. Because she walked into a door. Or what whatever nonsense they throw up. And you have to start asking yourself “Well why would that be? Why would…” they're all crimes they're all prosecutable. They're all criminal actions. They're all against the law they're all law enforcement officers charged with the responsibility of enforcing the law. And they know that to allow a bank robber cop to go loose and continue to rob banks is to bring disgrace and discredit on their organization, and erode their integrity, and you know this community they serve would soon lose all confidence in them. Right? If they were known to let bank robber cops go free or meth dealing cops go free. But wife beating cops going free not a problem at all. It's not even a… “What are you talking about? Why would I… why would I call the chief and tell him Johnny on the night squad has beating his wife?” That's Johnny's business. She can leave. Right? That's their private affair. That's how they process this, not as a crime. And that has to change. So it's corrupt in that sense.

 

Joni: You know, I don't, unfortunately, don't think that's limited to law enforcement. I think there's been this long history in our in our culture of seeing domestic violence as really relationship problems between two people. It's their business. They can work it out. But I want to shift gears a little bit if it's okay with you Bruce and just talk about, because one of the things we look for so much of the time in on our podcast is are warning signs. Trying to help people who are you know in a relationship or know somebody in a relationship and those kinds of things. And I know that you had said which is certainly not uncommon that from the outside looking in. Even closely on the outside looking in. I mean you're seeing this guy is in your house, you went on vacation that you didn't see anything. But a couple things I think really struck me when you we were talking initially about this relationship. One being Abby's kind of reluctance to really commit in this relationship. That from the very beginning there seemed to be something kind of off for her. And I wanted to kind of get a sense from you what that was. What he was doing that was kind of putting her off. And then number two would be: after she died, after she was murdered, if you if you talked to any of her friends that she had confided in. And she had shared any of her misgivings or what was going on.

 

Bruce: Yeah happy to get into that. Before we do though I want to just loop back to one quick thing. You mentioned it's not obviously unique to the world of policing, to accept domestic abuse. Other fields other disciplines you know doctors, lawyers, Indians, anybody. The difference though then I think it's an important distinction is that they're the ones who were authorized to enforce the law and lock up people for doing the same thing when they're a civilian. So I think the hypocrisy and, you know, the sort of failure to treat everybody equally applies to cops more so. It makes it even a worse crime when a cop does it than a doctor or lawyer. Tell that to the woman suffering you know right they don't care who's doing it. But the but the reality is there's that added element of hypocritical behavior and frankly just it's outrageous to accept that.

 

So back to Abby. Yes there were signs. I mean I didn't know it going in but the love bombing thing. If I came into contact with a father, or even a mother, of a teenage girl just starting dating I would warn… I would… I didn't know anything about love bombing. I didn't know about the cycle of how you know the power and control starts… you taken away “Don't wear that. Don't go there. Don't see this person.” Stripping them away from their foundational relationships. And how that that that can just disintegrate and descend into horror and terror. So somebody who is just too good to believe, just might be too good to believe. So that's a warning. And I've seen other domestic violence resources, the power and control wheel. You're probably familiar with that circle with the indicators. I mean I don't know why… that should be… I don't know at every high school, at every college. I mean every, and frankly, men should have it too men should be aware and say “Hey is this this me? Do I do these things?” And why shouldn't, again just like with the OIDV policy information's power, and it's useful, and it can change and shape society and outcomes. Why not get good information out there? Everybody should know what a lethality assessment is. Same kind of thing. If you're looking at a dating relationship, take look at the some states are passing lethality assessment requirements on law enforcement when there's a domestic violence call. Do these factors apply? Is this woman in in danger of being killed? And you know they gauge and prorate these things. And if you have so many of them it informs how the cops should respond. If I'd had all of those tools available and applied them, and particularly if Abby had applied them, to Dan Laden's case I suspect she would have had a more fulsome appreciation for what a malevolent force this guy really is. But instead she just interpreted his benevolence, kindness, courtesy as just a guy who's head over heels for her. And she was not head over heels for him.

 

And to your question she was constantly saying he's just way out in front of his skis. He's picking out drapes in the house that they're going to live in blissfully for you know till death do his part. And she was like “Dude I might not even want to see you next week, let alone six months, or six years down the road.” Should have been a hint, you know? Could have been a hint. I should say. I think his saccharin kindness, you know, this overbearing sweetness was masking, you know, this for boing malevolence. But we didn't see it for what it was. I don't think she saw it for what she what it. Was but she didn't like it. So there was something about it she constantly had this “Hands off. No you're not coming over.”

 

I told you that we had them up to our place New Hampshire in November. Well at Christmas time we were back here, had grandsons and we have a big whoopy dooo thing with the family. He wanted to come to our families holiday celebration. And Abby was like “Nope.” And apparently that really pushed him, like pushed his buttons. And to people like, I mean people like you, but to you, that may evoke psychological you know upbringing, family… his… what does that say about his family life that he wanted so much to be a part of our family life? I don't know. But that's all just armchair, you know shrinkery on our part. But she constantly pushed him back. Didn't have him over her house. I think dogs are good indicators. She had two dogs and I don't think the dogs liked him. And you know again another hint maybe they should have dogs to detect this.

 

And she confided… the other half of the question was, did she confide in her friends and whatnot? And we have talked to quite a few. And they basically say the same things we did. She was a fairly private person. She didn't want anybody to know she was even dating this guy, in the agency. Because she wanted to carve out her own career and establish her own reputation on its merits. She didn't want any help from anybody. And in fact there came a time when she was asked to do an undercover child or sex trafficking or child trafficking I forgot which. So she was the, it was like a TV thing, you know she was wired up and in a hotel room with cameras and microphones and they set up the guy to come in and then they were in the rooms next door. And they were going to pounce you know and lock him up when he said the magic words, whatever it was. And she was all excited about doing this undercover thing. And he got wind that she was doing it. And in a, what I now see as a jealous rageful, intrusion, made phone calls to the people who he knew were on the squad, who were going to be in the rooms next door. And said “Hey you know I'm dating her. Be particularly careful. Watch out for her.” She went off like a rocket “How dare you interrupt… this is my career. This is my life. You stay the hell out of it.”

 

she was so pissed that he dared to even step into the territory anywhere near her. Which I think speaks a lot to her fierce sort of pride and convictions. And you know she brushed him back.

 

Joni: One of the things we talked about a little bit before we started recording was trying to… you know ,I found myself struggling to kind of pin down those warning signs. Because you were saying that they were so hard to see. And yet one of the things I think I'm hearing is that that Leighton kind of ignored boundaries in a way. Or kept pushing boundaries. You know, because I was thinking if I didn't invite somebody to my house that I was dating for the holidays there's obviously a message in that. But if that person responded by getting mad again that's not that is a red flag to me. To have a to have a conversation about what this meant about our relationship or why. I mean obviously that's in the context of a relationship. But it's almost like, you know, some of the things you said before we've talked. It's almost been like he had this agenda or this this in his mind how things were going to be. How this relationship was going to go. And he was annoyed or angry when she would get in the way of that. Versus seeing it as a partnership. Or a relationship. It was more like the “I'm driving things I'm going to dictate how they go and I'm going to be mad if you interfere with that or I'm not going to listen when you try to set limits.” Is that right?

 

Bruce: She's a character in a cast. A cast member in a plot that he's writing. And he alone is starring in. And she's almost fungible. Because I know now, you know, she was at least the ninth. You know? And there were more before that. I tracked down a woman he dated when he was still in college, who is a news anchor out in Iowa. On air TV news reader. And she didn't know that he had killed Abby and then himself. And she was shocked to hear that. And then I asked her if he'd ever betrayed any signs of violence or manipulative type behavior. She said “Not at all. Not at all.” And then thinking about it. She said, “You know what was weird though about him?” And you know that's where you get the real good stuff, right? When they say… some thought like that comes over them. She said, “He always wanted me to play wifey.” That was her word. You know he was still in college, she had speaking for herself, she said “I had just graduated. I was starting my career.” It's almost the same thing Abby said. And here he was you know wanting to out drapes. I think she might have actually used that very phrase. And I was like “Dude you're still in college. No, no we're not going to live happily ever after.” And she broke it off. And so clearly he's had that in him. You know this this fast, and I think I learned it from Mark Winn, “accelerated relationships” I think was his phrase. It's apparently a known thing. I'd never heard the phrase. So again you know, what are the tip offs? Somebody who's sort of advancing the marital bliss agenda out of proportion to what's really happening. You know it's the second date dude, what are you talking about? Should we live in a two-bedroom or a three-bedroom? you know no that's a warning! But I wouldn't have known that.

 

Jacque: I thought that only happened with women couples, Bruce? It's a joke.

 

I kind of want to switch gears a little bit if it's okay with you. We haven't talked that much about grief. And about the grief process. So it's been, you said, what three years and some change right? What was it like for you in the beginning? You and your family? Her mother and her brothers? And the extended family in the beginning? And what is it like now?

 

Bruce: Horrible. Beyond, you know, there are fathers, and mothers, and families. And then there are fathers and mothers and families. You know some are close, some are not so close. Some are moderately close. We gathered here in this house every weekend. You know and had a themed dinner. And I would you know pick a flavor, pick a continent, pick a country. And then we' do you know food, and drinks, and snacks. And maybe even costumes and stuff. Not I don't… not crazy costumes. But just token representations of a culture. Just trying to have a good reason to get together and have some fun. And it always was music. You know we picked the music that went along with it. And that doesn't… we still do it, you know it's a huge black hole. A gaping, cavernous, emptiness that is always going to be there. I think Joni, I said to you, that I can somehow bifurcate in my mind and a sort of dispassionate way, I can speak to you guys clinically about this and not be a sobbing mess. They're not far. You don't always know what's going to trigger it. But I feel like I have a purpose to talk about Abby and it's generally twofold. To make sure her name isn't erased. To see that I do any and everything I can to stop it from happening to somebody else. Along the way sure I crater. I crumble. We collapse. And I don't, none of us fight the crying, you know the sobbing. We know that it's healthy and necessary. We also respect each other's grief styles and patterns. None of us are the same. So we understand everything's different. But we, thank god my wife and I, I think, are very much aligned in our grief patterns. We'll be doing something and we're thinking the same thing for the same reason.

 

Jacque: What do you think has helped you the most?

 

Bruce: That's an interesting question. You have to have a reason to get up. You know I'm retired. And I a motorcycle guy. I'm a builder guy. Abby wanted to do a ton of things… she has a little starter house not far, a mile and a half from here. We had big plans to do a lot of things over there. And those plans were obviously dashed.

 

I have two other sons with houses and you know I do my handy stuff over there. But fully a third, or maybe more, because she was the one who wanted to learn more and do more with me. She wasn't she wasn't one to just have me do it and say “Oh thanks it's done.” She wanted to roll up her sleeves. I mean when she got a driver’s license I said “Great. Take that tire off that car yourself.”  I mean, because you're not going out on the road till you know how to change the flat. And show me how. And she did it all. I didn't touch it. Not the jack, nothing. The whole thing. And she was so proud of being able to do all these things for and by herself. And she wanted to learn how to do the things that we would have done over there.

 

So here's a useful thing, I had a conversation with somebody just yesterday who's got a grief thing going on… and somebody told it to me, or I read it soon after Abby was killed, and it's this grief in a ball thing. It's a visual image that I respond to. It's a ball in a box right a hot burning sphere of pain, and suffering. Agony. That's the grief ball. It's in a box the six sides all around. It's touching all sides. It's painful all day, every day, for every second. Because it's touching all six sides. And then I have some friends came and said “Want to go golfing?” Trust me you'd hardly know I was holding the right end of the club the way I golf. I'm no golfer. But I went. And you know okay fine you got away for a couple of hours. And a little bit of little ray of light penetrates. And you know that wasn't so terrible. “You want to do it again?” “Yeah, okay we'll do it again.”

 

So one side of the six of the box has grown a half an inch. So the ball isn't touching that side. All day every day. And then you grow another side. We go somewhere, we do something with the grandkids, the other, somebody else, some other friends. Who the heck knows what you do. But you don't wallow and in a pit of despair and dark, gloomy you know sadness. You do something. And frankly for me talking to you talking. To people who have suffered. Talking to people who want to do better and leave a better planet. God forbid save a life.

 

I always feel better personally, with my personal grief, when I feel like I'm pushing that, not the grief ball, but the other sports ball down the field. To a victory. Wherein…

 

Do you know you know the Petito… Gabby Petito story, right? They live in Hillsburg County now. Her biological mom and stepdad live right next door. And we met. People kept telling me you know “You should talk to them. You talk to them.” And Gabby was killed just months before Abby. And he too killed himself. And they too lost the child they had no sense they were about to lose. I mean the sudden bolt from the blue. So I've come to know them a little bit. And if you saw the recent Netflix piece, you know?

 

Jacque: Yeah I did watch that. And actually thought about them as we have been building this podcast. And you know there isn't much out there by them. So it's gonna be interesting to hear maybe your perspective on how they're doing, yeah.